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One small question about Heaven7

category: general [glöplog]
Phred: That's so weird! After reading what you wrote there I smirked and thought ok here we go, but I was suddenly too scared to do it. Seriously.

Anyone used a Ouija board? I don't believe they really contact spirits or anything but when they work they really freak me out.
Phred I can't quote more precise stuff that what you could find on your own, not being a specialist, but a different set of books mainly. (Even churches from different countries may differ slightly on the set of books they accept in their canon)
added on the 2003-10-12 23:59:00 by _-_-__ _-_-__
Shanethewolf: I have (the start) my story written down, here: http://www.multi.fi/~mbc/personal_jesus_inside.html
added on the 2003-10-13 00:13:30 by mri mri
A few things to read:


added on the 2003-10-13 00:37:41 by _-_-__ _-_-__
mri, I don't want to denigrate your experience, but a scientific mind would at least have tried dissociating the sensible experience you had from the symbolic interpretation that was (by context) offered to you.

All kind of "mystical" experiences have been evoked in all kinds of cults, monotheistic, polytheistic, animistic. Mystical experiences can also happen without even being inside of a cult. (Shamanism) They also can be triggered. (Meditation is one example)

added on the 2003-10-13 00:47:24 by _-_-__ _-_-__
phred: I will write you, no problem. If I was late with my answer, be patient please, cause I have LOTS of work now and really wanna finish it b4 it finises me =). But shortly: I read books (I will give you the titles),visitet some places, talked to certain ppl, lived with certains ppl. But well, maybe nothing special..
You can remind me that to my email add (yep, yourass is a real domain =).

MRI: I know what you are talking about (the 'sign' of IT). A couple of years I was a...some kind of.... not important.Anyway, he, thru some ppl, some situations let helped me to get otta it. Even in June 2oo3 I had some kind of his 'presence'. But it is too personal =/.

...I figure if God wanted me to believe him he'd show me a convincing sign. He can do anything, right?...
AfaIc all have a free will. No signs, no way-showing. Everything is YOUR decision only.

by: mystical experience is a real thing. Once I was meditating I 'etered' into a different reality (no shit, 't was 3 yrs ago). I was so scared and afraid a while after, so since that I gave up. I am not ready as for now. And I was NOT drunk, nor stoned.

One of the biggest mistake in christian (I know christianity better than musulmans, anglo-saxon churches, so that is why I am taling about them, but perhaps it is not an exception..?..) rituals is that they used to 'pray' just repeating some sentences learnt by heart. Not trying to innovate your own 'vibrations', not trying to be the word, to repeat them but with concentration. Saying sth automaticly is a pure waste of time. In addition they pray, that is true, but I think they do not know how to PREY activly. But well..

H7. Well, I think those guys just asked some questions to fit the demo-climat. But those Qs were asked seriously. They really wanted to know the answer for them.

Shit...gotta go to work @ 9 tommorow...
added on the 2003-10-13 01:47:27 by sim sim
Foolman: No. It was just a joke. I actually like that quote. Didn't knew it was from Nietzsche, interesting :)
added on the 2003-10-13 11:21:24 by Optimus Optimus
Yesterday I got a nicer meaning than any religion could give me..

Have a time :)
added on the 2003-10-13 11:27:40 by Optimus Optimus
knos: I was, and still am a very skeptical person to stuff I don't understand. And I'm aware that the human brain can do strange stuff. You don't know me, but I'm not a "spiritual" person, heck, I'm just a simple coder. :-) However, I think every person has a limit to what he/she can consider a dream, imagination, or whatever. That specific experience I wrote about certainly passed my limit. And it still does, thinking back and trying to analyse the circumstances around it and what actually happend.
added on the 2003-10-13 11:47:37 by mri mri
MRI, I wasn't really meaning to suggest your experience was fake, but
more to stir the argument that the interpretation of this experience in
a given context (in your case christian) doesn't validate the context

That's my major objection with religions.. Even if an absolute exists
(whatever exists means in that respect), they display the hubris to
interpret it through sensible experiences, and to explain it via the
limited human languages. (An example they are even conscious of that,
in the monotheistic judaistic religions they try to claim those
human words are directly from god's messengers)

In my mind, for a believer, religions should be all "blasphemous" by
nature ;)

Another objection i have with religions is that the ones we are exposed
to are the ones that have been succesful. (in converting believers) They
then proceed to explain that their success is the reason they have the
one and only truth. It reminds me a lot of how disagreements were solved
in the medieval times, a simple duel and the winner would be considered
the "right" one.

Success in converting believers doesn't equate with being right and
correct to me.

added on the 2003-10-13 12:41:42 by _-_-__ _-_-__
oh know, you don't know how right you are..
I am/was in a church that boasted itself with growth (member number) but didn't pay attention to the state of it's member..
Well, that church now is in a disaster.. a real one..

I second on the "religions are blasphemous".. :-)
as long as they claim that this is the absolute picture of God..
well.. could the bible be descripted by a 3d scene projected to the 2d monitor? Are demos blasphemy too? :-)
added on the 2003-10-13 13:10:10 by phred phred
MRI: I have read your story, it's interesting to me. I wish such a boost/change in my life would happen with me too, but so big and not just a permanent idea that will fade the next day, one that would make me believe in something. But still there would be some problems with me.

First, I would hate to interpret it with Christianism. Because I am too prejudged about that. Not as a fanatic atheist but just as a person who was oblidged to go to church because my parents said so. And of course because many religious people are quite absolute and closeminded in their opinions, just what I hate. It's a pitty, because even if I ever have such a strong(?) experience like your own, my mind will slip away from thinking to start believing in Christianism again.

Also I still don't know how would my consiousness interpret any experiences. I think I have a very logical filter (quite serious one) in my head that doesn't let me see weird facts under an alternative paranormal/divine view. This works with other things, even if I'd love to see something weird. For example I love to read about UFOs and paranormal, I am openminded hearing such stories, no matter if they could be fake, but I haven't seen in my life anything weird to nock me off. If I ever encountered something strange, my logical filters didn't let me have a paranormal vision of it. Like I am just ignoring it. So, I think that my mind would avoid to slip and interpret an evidence without bright signs as something divine/paranormal.

I don't know. Your story is interesting to me. We all want to believe in something sometimes. But I have wondered something else. Why should the divine experiences be interpretted by the known religions? Why couldn't something unique (not Jesus or anything else, but something unknown) appear to myself and bring me such an experience? Could I perhaps construct my own God's? (perhaps they could just be philosophical ideas or beliefs having to do with my personality, only aligorically interpretting them to some God's) Perhaps my own personality doesn't let it come. I just can't believe in a religion/god that has already millions of people, can't believe in something thought a long time ago before I was born. I wanted something new..

And why should this thing be appearing in only few people? Why some things just have to be bad for some people and no God could give some help?

I just mean that I am still lost.

I only got a good boost yesterday by an English erasmus student, a very nice guy, with whom it happened to have talked about my problem as I usually do here and except from the very interesting discussion we had, he made me think of having a time here in Karlsruhe, not a good time, but just a time without caring it means, without thinking it that much. Something like a divine "Carpe Diem" spell :)

It's so nice, I have a nice feeling today. And today I have so many new friends around, I'll go to take some lessons, I'll drink some beer, I'll code some stuff for fun, without caring for anything! The talk with the Englishman was much better than anything I have ever got from religions till today (nothing perhaps) and I just can't continue living and enjoy my stay here in Karlsruhe.

I don't want to define if God exists or not, just to point out my personal null experiences. I respect that you have found something to believe actually ;)
added on the 2003-10-13 14:49:57 by Optimus Optimus
MRI: I found the story very intriguing. But religion does rely heavily on the power of suggestion, and even subtle forms of mind control. I’m sorry if that sounds critical; it’s not meant to be. It’s something we are all susceptible to whether we know it or not, and it’s used in business, advertising and politics, as much as it is used in religion.

A certain atmosphere can be conducive to certain mental and physical reactions. For example, after watching a horror movie, you are more likely to be frightened by sudden noises or discern strange figures in the shadows. Or if you stare at an ants’ nest, you may physically start to itch, despite the fact that there are no ants on you.

When your wife and friends placed their hands on you and prayed, you may have consciously told yourself it was nonsense. But on some unconscious level it could still be occupying your thoughts. You may have been wondering “what if?” and have been expecting, perhaps even willing something to happen as a result of this experience.

To me it sounds like you wanted this to work – for the sake of your marriage and for some kind of fulfilment – so I guess you were already in an open state of mind. It could even be that crying and purging your negative emotions could account for this relaxed and liberated sensation you felt.

Really, it doesn’t matter how sceptical you are either, because our unconscious thoughts can always be influenced in one way or another. If I say to you DO NOT think of the elephant, you might realise I’m trying to trick you into thinking about the elephant, but the harder you resist the more you will think about the elephant. The same technique can also be used to lure people into a suggestible state and to actually influence their actions. Another example…

My friend visited a fortuneteller some years ago and she predicted he would find a new job. In the following weeks he started to look out for work and attend interviews on the off chance that she was right, and that the perfect job was waiting to be found. Of course, just by doing this he increased his chances of finding that job, but the fortuneteller didn’t just foresee this, she actually caused it to happen.

But I’m going to stop writing now before this post starts reaching Optimus proportions. :)

Like Knos, I have no desire to criticise or doubt MRI’s experience, and if Christianity offers contentment and happiness, then that in itself is a good reason to accept it.
added on the 2003-10-13 14:50:41 by Wade Wade
As for the "Carpe Diem" spell and the quote, it's the most simpliest phrase that had such an effect upon me. Before the guy left, he told me "Have a good time here in Karlsruhe" and then he said "Oh,. no, no,. to say it better,... just have a time :)" and we found it good and laughed ;) The meaning is that the sentence got even simplier and more silly, so that we didn't cared. And the 'good' didn't existed in the sentence too. It's like it was a strong "Carpe Diem" aftereffect, like not even care about if the time is good, just live your life,. and perhaps the laughter and perhaps my surprise of how simplified but unique this is, made my mood even greater. Perhaps it was also the way he told me or the time. But this simplistic phrase will stay in my mind now.

Have a time :)

P.S. I am wondering if it could make it to the oneliner's default/blank message..
added on the 2003-10-13 15:03:42 by Optimus Optimus
our next release will be Heavem 666.
burn in hell...

christian propaganda? wtf is that?

teo / exceed.
added on the 2003-10-13 16:30:23 by teo teo
knos: OK, understand your point. I have been thinking alot about that. When I decided to become a christian, I knew some bits about what I was getting into, but not everything. But still, I took the chance based on what I knew and from personal experienced so far. After becomming a christian, lots more have happend, and so far, it's all in line with the christian faith and the bible. Of course, you could again argue that I now interpret everything into a given context... but well, that's up to you. :-)

Optimus: As phred said erlier, if you really want to and honestly pray to God to give you some sort of proof, something that will be relevant to you, I belive you will get it. The initiative is on our side. God will not force himself upon us, because we have a free will.

Wade: You sound just like me, about 2 years ago. :-)
added on the 2003-10-13 16:31:14 by mri mri
optimus: yeah, I can feel with you. I often also want new things instead of old ones. But: just a thought, isn't the "world" nowadays saying "new, new new!" telling everyone to ignore the old things and take the new ones.
Perhaps it's not true everywhere on earth but here in switzerland: Young people are "better", the older have to go in a home for the aged, the politicians must be young, etc.. the younger the better.
For me it is/was true with music, I couldn't buy old music, it was just impossible for me and I cannot say why.. no reason at all.. :-)
Is this just me or is this true?
added on the 2003-10-13 20:45:54 by phred phred
Increase your chances of choosing the right path. Choose Bahai!

added on the 2003-10-13 23:01:36 by Tongue Tongue
Wade: Right i showed it to Paul (buddist freind :) , and i didnt give him any clues about what it was or our conversation. He answered :"Pretty images, relevant questions" wich didnt surprice me a bit, as he is a man of very few words. Oh well maybe demos is a scener thing only afterall =/

Phred. I would be very happy to go into a debate about Paul (not my buddist freind). But it is longvinded and has all to do with flimsy translations, and insertions by the powermongers in the church, like what you have aired you self allready.

Besides, its a tough debate, because christianity have so many branches, with each their own chraracteristics.

Ultimate Gas. I looked at the page. But theres one thing that i dont understand. Why do we need a new relegion, when we havent even begun to understand the old ones? I fail to see how the nature of man have changed that much.

To me the basic of human nature is. We're animals, but we can choose not to be, and that makes us something very unique. It is how to define what "not animal" is, that causes all the fuzz, innit? ;D
added on the 2003-10-15 13:20:33 by NoahR NoahR
sim: can't find out your email address, sorry... which add? Didn't find it..
added on the 2003-10-16 07:31:41 by phred phred
phred: ok, sent....
added on the 2003-10-16 11:52:17 by sim sim
Wade: IM going to follow up on that, parents forcing faith thing. YOu must understand that to me, hell is no joke, it is not a maybe, i have chosen to belive a message to be true. And by that i accept that everything that maessage says is the truth and nothing else. So with the knowledge of hell, there is no way i want to accept that my children may go there. So ofcourse i am going to raise them within my faith. Teach them about it, the way it works etc.. At the end of the day i will have to accept if they as adults choose another relegion, but it would break my heart.
I think that is the drive behind parents who push their faith upon their young ones. And there is nothing wrong with it, to relegious people it is a matter of life and death.
But there are several ways to do it. As a muslim it isnt to hard, because it's more than a relegion, it is your whole way of life. You live islam, you dont practice it. The problems occour when you say one thing, but do another. Children arent fools, far from it, and should be respected ats intelligent beings, by not misleading them. I.e say ..."smoking is bad for you" and then smoke yourself. Or by threatening themn with hell, whenever they make errors. Ofcourse they make errors, but theres no need to scare them. it is enough that adults have to live with the knowledge of hell. Children have no need for that knowledgte untill their in their teens.

SO i dont know if i misunderstand you, but i hope that you understand that to parents with a relegion, there are no choice. Then you can talk about it being unfair, that our choice reflect on the young ones, but that is the way it always was. and they will eventually have to make the choice themself.
added on the 2003-10-16 12:09:12 by NoahR NoahR
my friends religion, whitetrashtafarai, was once the fastest growing religion in the world doubling it's members daily :)
added on the 2003-10-16 12:50:00 by violator violator
Damn, missed a huge interesting debate ;-( Cursed exams!

Well, here's my take on the whole religion thing (going back to my earlier bit on religious engineering some too :)

Long ago, people first began to understand the environment a bit, and began asking the 'big' questions like where we came from, where the world is from etc. Perhaps Mr. Caveman was making a cage to keep a pig or a chicken one day, and saw the significance: what if somebody higher up the chain made this land as a cage for me? I guess something like that is how the first idea of god(s) came about anyway. And of course, people would want to know more: how made the land? how? why? And gods would be invented that reflect the world around them (just look at some old religions, and where the religions came from...)

later, people would understand a bit more, and think that the old gods did not make so much sense perhaps. The people would look for some other religion to explain things. And people in power would see this and look for religions to import that suited their own agenda, and perhaps they would change things here and there too, such as suggesting that the people should be faithful to god, and they should do that by supporting the church (like the catholics suggesting confession, and that the pope is the mouthpiece of god etc).

That's religious engineering, it's been going on with the christian church since the start (which is why the bible was re-written so many times when it didn't suit the politics), it's going on now, and it's probably been going on since people first thought of god. I guess that's why so many religions have the same characters (often in different roles, like jesus), and I guess if you folllowed it back further and further you would see the religions getting the same treatment all the time.

It's interesting to see how things are done when you look into it. Common methods are mixing 2 religions to get a suitable mixture (look into voodooism, you find some old african gods, and jesus and mary :), altering the history (like the altering of the bible - perhaps jesus was not such a nice man, but a very good speaker, and built up some following - future generations can be told a few parts truth (which can be backed up with history), some exagerated truth to make it sound better, and all the bad parts left out... if this happens several times over a few hundred years, it's easy to go from minor cult leader to son of god). Some other common ones: inserting legends (telling the people a prophet will come to lead them from slavery - a good way to keep the slaves under control, and a good way to fame and fortune if you want to become the prophet too), performing miracles (some money and a good magician can go a long way if the audience is ignorant), mysticism (like others have said, there are many ways to give visions, or extreme emotions, or signs, and if that's planned and done in the right circumstances in the right time+place, it's easy to pursuade somebody that it has a particular meaning without them knowing they were pursuaded. Many cults use such methods today. Eg. small doses of hallucinogens can give you a feeling that something important is happening, but you're not sure what, and it also reduces your ability to see what's really happening.

I was suggesting that buddism could be excluded from things, not cause it's free from religious engineers, but because it's not based so much on history which can be proved false by science/archaeology etc.

I think that if you look at things this way, the only place for religion is creation - the idea that god made the universe, and created it to test us or whatever. But i think that is just putting off the question, because while it answers the whole 'where did we come from and why are we here' thing, it still leaves you with 'where did god come from, who made god, and why?'

So, my beliefs: all of the religions are false. Perhaps there is a god, if so, it's nothing more than some kind of intelligence way beyond our own. Like the pig in it's cage, it doesn't imply the human is god. So, perhaps there is some kind of god. maybe not. Maybe there is a heaven, maybe not.
added on the 2003-10-16 13:12:03 by psonice psonice


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