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One small question about Heaven7

category: general [glöplog]
the only real fact here is that, again, you sirs, are homos
added on the 2003-10-11 13:15:47 by Jcl Jcl
News (but d-lee will probably arrive in ten seconds and know everything better):

Exceed is not officially dead, however, inactive. Their last major release was Spot at ASM2000. Time by time it's rumoured that they're working on something, but actually the main members deny this. I doubt there will be a new Exceed release in the near future, as the members are now scattered around the world, working on commercial stuff or attending universities.
added on the 2003-10-11 14:01:20 by tomcat tomcat
Phred. I am indeed Muslim, or to be honest, i try hard to do my best and grow with the assignment. The meaning of the word muslim, means someone that submits him/herself to God 100% ...i wouldnt even dare to say im anywhere near that point, as is very few people. But we try our best :)

Yes you figured it out. Saw is short for the arabic term of "May God bless him or may God be completely satisfied with him.

Yeah often, relegious debates turn into flamewars. But that was never the intention. I was just premiscous, because being a muslim often generates the questions i answered upfront. It is by no means a strike against christianity or christians, and if you took it that way, i give you my sincere apollogy. But i do however not understand why paul - especially in the catholic church- at times seems to be even more important than Jesus (saw)
And thus my refference to the agreement with Abraham (saw) and the refference to what Jesus (saw) said about changes in the law.

Phred...Wich translation of the meaning of the Quraan do you have then? or maybe the original arabic one? Do you get anything out of it? (just curious mate :))

Wade...you are correct, i cant figure out either, if there is THE Bible, or wich of the lot it is. But i now both quotes to be in king james (revised version. the one where the beginning is :" In the beginning was the word, and the word was devine") and the Danish Bible (quite logical as i am Danish, innit? ;))

And to answer your second question....i have no idea.

But as i stated in my first post. The seven heavens are a part of muslim belief. So when i see the intro heaven 7 i think i get a completelly other message than you guy's.
But maybe it was intended that way...i think im going to show this to a buddist freind i have, and see what he picks from it.

added on the 2003-10-11 14:26:39 by NoahR NoahR
I always read Heaven 7 in a kind of Socratic sense, in that it poses rhetorical questions about Heaven in order to stimulate our individual thoughts – rather than blindly accepting a dogmatic belief or the principles of organised religion.

The questions about the newborn and the elderly, for example, seem to ask what happens if we cannot (physically or mentally) adhere to a faith or religion. Or what if we lose our minds and betray our faith through no conscious fault of our own? Will we still be accepted into Heaven?

According to some Catholic teachings I’m familiar with, any person (or animal) who has not been baptised will be denied entry into Heaven, without exception. Also, at the time the Bible, gospels and many other religious texts were written, mental disabilities were believed to be caused by demons, so these people would most likely have been condemned to Hell. If God or the prophets knew otherwise, why didn’t they clarify this when dictating the scriptures and commandments? Of course this example underlines the human error in religious understanding.

Other questions I read are: if the newborn does enter into Heaven, will he get the opportunity to grow and develop? Will people who lose their mental functions at some point in their life go back to their prime when they enter Heaven or will they continue to live for eternity in a vegetated state?

As Psonice said, it’s as though the Christian church pretends these things don’t happen, possibly because they have no answers. In fact, no one can answer these questions with a single truth.

Many people have different answers and interpret the intro/poetry differently, but what I consider important is not so much what it asks, but that it gets us to open our mind and question our faith on a personal level.
added on the 2003-10-11 16:56:28 by Wade Wade
Many people have different answers and interpret the intro/poetry differently, but what I consider important is not so much what it asks, but that it gets us to open our mind and question our faith on a personal level.

Wade: yeah mate, that is pretty much what i meant. But as i already DID take a choice out of free will, after questioning my faith for a long time the demo seems to reflect my choice rather than give me new inputs. And i could see others write in one way or another that, that is what they feel about it too.
Help me out here, is it bloody clever designed textwise, or is it pure luck and coincidence? ...you tell me.
This thread sure made me look at it with a new set of eyes.
added on the 2003-10-11 18:08:24 by NoahR NoahR
Iblis: I certainly respect that. I do disagree when parents force religion on their children and forbid them to discover their own beliefs, but anyone who makes a free decision about their faith must have an open mind to do so.

As for the text I personally think it's very clever. I guess by asking questions instead of trying to give answers it seems to draw an individual response. I mean, it doesn't put ideas into our mind, as such, but rather it draws them out.

I'd be very interested to know what your Buddhist friend thinks about it as nirvana (their equivalent of Heaven I suppose) is more about complete detachment from human thought and existence, so I don't think many of these interpretations would apply to him.
added on the 2003-10-11 19:00:22 by Wade Wade
Iblis: To my knowledge, Paul was the most active of the first missonars, so you might consider him as the founder of the christian church (not the christian belief, but the church). And as I know, the catholic church celebrates him as such.

But well, I get mixed feelings when reading Paul´s letters, and I think that he had some quite strange opinions, so... not all christians think he is the most important christian ever, and for sure not more important than Jesus. He´s probably the reason that I´m christian now, but otherwise...

But I´m curious about what you said about Paul, saying he had even more knowledge than God. Do you know where to read that? I think he saw himself better than Petrus, and insultet him sometimes, but about the other things... Are you sure?
added on the 2003-10-11 19:03:58 by chock chock
Oooh look... A tree! Sorry, am I off-topic? Guess that's two of us!
added on the 2003-10-11 21:37:42 by dotwaffle dotwaffle
stfu waffle, this thread is by far the most interesting I've read here for a very long time.
and no flamers for once :)

kudos to iblis and wade for their openmindedness.
added on the 2003-10-12 04:30:35 by lug00ber lug00ber
Oh, sorry for my quite of off-topic question, but I'd like to know this, so lest question: Everyone always tells that h7 had a lot of fake parts, making the raytracer one of the fasters the scene has seen, so my question is: what parts include (and which tricks were used) fake items and how are they used. I can recognise a few parts were impostors were used, but I'd like to be sure about that (you know, some of the reflections, etc, etc). Let's see :)
added on the 2003-10-12 06:04:15 by shash shash
wade. I liked your gfx tutorial on your page. As far as I know regarding Buddhism, Nirvana is different from Heaven. A closer analog is De Wa Chen.
added on the 2003-10-12 10:11:38 by mconstant mconstant
shash, maybe you didn't know that page?

added on the 2003-10-12 10:56:04 by _-_-__ _-_-__
I could never really find a single reason in Believing... either to some God(s) or religion...

Does it give some kind of pleasure in knowing that something will happen after you die? Or maybe in knowing that there is a Reason for this all?
Cause i find both of them quite annoying....

Do you need to know that someOne said so, to have some ethical system of your own?
Do you not find yourselves capable enough to believe in whatever "truths" you believe?
Is not reality enough to make you "Understand"?

Because i can think of many reasons for not believing in the most controversial pseudoethical systems (religions) ever...

Has there been any good actually made out of religious beliefs?
Cause i can think a lot of "bad"...
Do you really think it's because of the practice and not because of the theory?
Cause i can think a lot of theoretical problems as well...

Here's not the place i suppose to answer all of these questions, or to analyse theology...
just my own concerns...

and a cliche:

No gods, No masters...
added on the 2003-10-12 14:44:34 by psyche psyche
iblis: oh well, I don't know which versions these are. They are both interlinear-translations (is this a common word or just a word for bibletranslations?)
The first one (the "bader" as the muslim friend said) is by abdullah yusuf ali and is named "the holy qur'an". The other one is by Dr. Muhammad Taqî-ud-Dîn Al'Hilâlî and Dr Muhammad Muhsin Khân, is named "The noble qur'an" and the pages start from left to right, you know, you open the book on his last page.. they are both in english.

About Paul more important than Jesus: It's sad if it is, for me Paul for me gives more insight into the person of Jesus.

About that "born in sins": I believe that a newborn or a person that can't do his desicion to become Christian goes to heaven too. I absolutely believe that is also the intention of God/the bible. As I am informed, the baby baptisms started a few hunderts of years after the first church, so it is something added by the catholic church..
added on the 2003-10-12 17:19:08 by phred phred
This is only personal note. When I saw H7 for the first time I was 'excited'. Wow, finally sb touch the subject of existence and philosophical aspect of life.

The bible is sth 'strange'. To understand what we have here in catholicism, we have to follow all the vaticans councils since 334 in Nice/France. There with 30sth votes, the heads of the church decided that Jesus was a god. There they decided what we should read in the BOOk what we shouldn't. I forgot who asked the church to do tha council, but the reason was a political one. The bible has an Old Testament which is the basis and history of some dudes. The New Test. it it about some adventures of Jesus and +++. But if you wanna know it for good, it is necessary to read it in original , or in Greek. Otherwise there are too many ambiguities.

Templars. It is said that in the temple of Salomon they discovered the tables of the Law. That knowledge let him to build the cathedrals in Chartres, Paris, Amiens, Rouen... In addition all the cathedrals are standing on the mirror virgin constilation took from the stars. BUT at that time they DID NOT worship cross, as thay claimed Jesus haven't died on the Cross! There were NO corsses in the cathedrals during the period of the Temlpars. In addition thay claimed that John Baptists was more important than Jesus. Thay used to suppose that Jesus was together with Marie-Madelene. They had to be wiped out by Philip V the beautiful. Why? Politics.

Occitane and Cathars. The Cathars were extincted by Simon the Montfort in 1208-1213 even burned alive. Why? Cause they did NOT agree with the pope about the relligion, they used anticonception (intestines, entrails as the condoms), they treated women as equal!!

So what? There were LOTS of exemples like these. I used to follow the catholics rules, later buddhists. Now? I believe in STH what is powerful and good. After all the lectures, all the books I read I can say one thing: In the past they hid some important facts about Jesus+his family and they(the church) was afraid of it to be released. What was that? There are many suggestions like: he had children, he was not soa good as we may read in the Bible, everybody is responsible for the reality, +++++. That's why they spilled so many blood.. To keep ppl AFRAID of GOD

Born in sins. If we consider reincarnation, there is sth like karma, what gotta be fulfilled and repaired in the present life. That what we can say 'our sins' and 'born in the sins', cause we should repair it now. How? Difficult to answer. It is necessary to know karma definition.

Nirvana != Heaven. The 1st is the highest state of the meditation, the conjunction with the ENERGY, Universum, GOD, IHVH, ADNI, ELHIM, whatever we could named IT. Heaven - the place after death. Does it exist? It is said that your reality is a relfection of your mind, decisions, beliefs. If you believe in Heaven, probably you will go there. If you believe you deserve hell, you go there. Dunno ;).

No gods No masters..
Sound familiar. But we gotta have masters who show us the way to go. Good democoders=) also show that sth IS really possible. Are they not some kind of masters? Scene is a small part of the Univers.

Once, I found one sentence which is very universal:
- The only religion is the TRUTH -.

Well.. Probably too many information for a one post. Anyway... This is only personal note.
added on the 2003-10-12 18:45:47 by sim sim
Nah,. it's very interesting but I don't have time now. I remember to once trying to find a meaning in H7 but my mind never thought about religions. I don't have the time to write about now, perhaps a bit later, I was all the day away..

As for religions, I don't believe in a god today. But I am not an atheist. I just don't care. Or actually if I cared then I would be lost. Few bad times I felt I'd need something, but a supreme beeing to support myself? Why me anyways??? During that, I thought some of the reasons that makes people to search for a divine religion. Unfortunatelly I also don't have the time to write them here.

And the last, how can I have the mood to engage into religions, when my father gets insane the last time I decided to not go to the church oneday at Eastern? :P

P.S. To me, it seems that humans killed God, if there ever existed a deep meaning concerning religions. (I just remembered a screen from Shad2 where it says somewhere "God is dead", now that would be satanistic propaganda ;)
added on the 2003-10-12 20:00:04 by Optimus Optimus
Wow, what a thread! Seldom can faith, religion, etc. be discussed this openly.
I became a christian two years ago. Before that I could be described as an atheist. For many years it was "I just don't care.", as Optimus said. After that I simply couldn't believe in any god, even if I at times maybe wanted too. But God actually gave me a very personal proof of his existence that totally blew me away.
added on the 2003-10-12 21:30:43 by mri mri
Optimus: You'd consider Nietzsche as a satanist?
as he was whom Shad got that line in Dionysos borrowed from...
added on the 2003-10-12 21:53:35 by FooLman FooLman
SIM: wow.. what a post..
interesting facts about Templars, Occitane and co..
Where do you have this infos from? I often heared about "the catholic church deleting some part of the bible" or so.. but I never came across any facts, and I can't imagine how it could work.. I mean they find papyrus from the first centuries and so.. before any consile.. but anyway, can you give me some urls or stuff? you could also write me email (phred NOSPAM at MAPSON priest NONO dot com) because I am quite interested.

the sentence "the only true religion is the TRUTH".. wow.. more of that please..!
added on the 2003-10-12 22:13:30 by phred phred
Phred, the first glaring example is that between the protestants, the jews, the catholics and the orthodox some parts of the bible are left out.
added on the 2003-10-12 22:51:32 by _-_-__ _-_-__
And i'll add to that that it's quite normal, considering that the bible is an incoherent mess of doctrines that are not quite compatible at all.
added on the 2003-10-12 22:52:33 by _-_-__ _-_-__
"But God actually gave me a very personal proof of his existence that totally blew me away."

MRI: Please tell us how He did that! I know a lot of people who say this but it turns out to be something like a dream, some preacher who happens to come into their life at the right time (yeh, it's not that they prey on the weak and vulnerable or anything) or something totally vague.

I figure if God wanted me to believe him he'd show me a convincing sign. He can do anything, right?
knos: all right. The catholics have the apocrypha, the jews don't have the new testament (the OT is same as the "common" (i.e. protestant )bible ??). What is different in the orthodox bibles..?
added on the 2003-10-12 23:06:06 by phred phred
i guess it's easy to "put in" your own beliefs in the h7-poem since, as wade pointed out, it's all just written in questions that you really have to answer yourself.
my point was just about what i thought the authors own answers were about, not that it really matters :)

now on to the more serious matter of religion. by itself it is a neutral concept, but in application it has wrought great harm.
added on the 2003-10-12 23:08:12 by lithis lithis
shanethewolf: I also had some sort of that in my life and it is just mindblowing for the one that is involved.. As in my case I don't really like to tell my story.. When I told the story, it turned out to appear silly or normal or anything to other people. But, well, if you dare to honestly pray to God, if you exist, then show me... I did that too.. and that then was my personal experience.. :-)
added on the 2003-10-12 23:10:13 by phred phred


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