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does ZX Spectrum platform needs to be subdivided?

category: general [glöplog]
alone coder, yes, trd is mostly about pentagon, but I don't think you can categorize anything based on fileformat.

I'm saying exactly as you say. in the last couple of years, russia oriented groups started to port their pentagon demos to standard 128k. What I'm saying is, if a "pentagon demo" works on 128k, it's not a pentagon demo anymore, it must be listed as a standard 128k demo. So in time, pentagon category will became relatively small and be merged into "enhanced/custom" category.

For +2A/+3 opposers, your point is not valid. Amstrad machines only differ in timing (as with many standard spectrum issues). Pentagon machines differ in hardware level, they have no contention, you can do 2 pixel border and wide multicolour effects which is impossible in *any* of official spectrums.

Anyway, as I personally trust both diver and gasman as our elite sceners, I respect both of you, and I accept what you agree guys. I just wanted to say what I -the audience- think, and maybe force you to think about the subject from different point of view.

Again, the problem is I cannot run any of the (tap or disk based) pentagon demos on a standard machine. pentagons are different, like 48k vs 128k. a 128k demo cannot work on 48k. they work only one way, not the way around.
added on the 2013-03-31 21:18:39 by ref ref
@ref, I just wanted to say that not everything is as bad as one might think reading this thread. Some russian democoders already started to make TAPs and fix the timings to original 128k already a years ago. It is not fair to say "hopefully russian sceners will start to use official contended timings". They did it already. Even before Alone_Coder joinet the pouet.net.

"2 pixel border..." - ref, are you really sure? :)
added on the 2013-03-31 21:32:37 by diver diver
I don't even own a Spectrum so my opinion is pretty unimportant in this thread, but it confuses me that people already think it's sensible to categorise demos that don't run on any of the real Spectrums as Spectrum demos. To me it sounds equivalent to putting Windows-only demos in a specifically MSDOS category.
added on the 2013-03-31 21:40:09 by doz doz
doz, you're right. But the situation is a bit more complex than "dos/win" analogy. Alone_Coder wants to judge which demo Spectrum 128k and which not only by loader routine, not the demo itself.
added on the 2013-03-31 21:45:57 by diver diver
@diver, I guess :)


I think this is pentagon. Check out the border effect (spaceship thruster).
added on the 2013-04-01 00:31:28 by ref ref
my vote for:

128K and coz Pentagon without enhanced ram\rom\gfx or sound cards
Enhanced (all other zx monsters with more than 128K + enhanced gfx modes and sound cards etc)
added on the 2013-04-01 06:27:47 by nodeus nodeus
I think this is not a limitation for demos and coders, it's just separate. Relax.
added on the 2013-04-01 06:33:25 by nodeus nodeus
I always wanted to ask - how many demosceners there are with original 128k and tape?
Are there any? I can only see 20-30 users here, on pouet. Are there any other resources or communities which use 128+tape?

I'm convinced at the moment that 128+tape is a mostly gaming community (except 5-10 active people from Czech/Poland) and Pentagon+trdos is a demoscene community.
Judging by this logic, it's reasonable to port all games to tape, and it's reasonable to port all demos to trdos. Other way seems to be just a waste of time.

ref, I can remember the tape versions of russian demos made by original authors after TR-DOS release, which was a step toward the western scene and pure act of politeness.
Are there at least one demo ported from tape to TR-DOS by original authors? Please, name it, I can't remember any.
How can there be more tape versions fixed for original 128k timings if most users of original 128k don't bother to ask for them? No interest = no support.

btw, these empty topics are a good illustration of a "great" 128k demoscene activity:
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41651 - zero replies
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43172 - zero replies
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42477 - zero replies
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42134 - zero replies
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42045 - one WoS user, others are from eastern scene
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43062 - zero replies
Are tape versions really so required? Will anybody really use them? Where is a discussion of latest demoscene production between original 128k users? If it's only here, on pouet, then this community is really small.
What moroz1999 said.

Also, why TAP is the standard, and disk systems NOT? Betadisk interface is not the russian invention. Why blame russian Pentagon-equipped demoscene for tricky multiloaders, if there is no other wide-spreaded disk systems?
added on the 2013-04-01 10:06:00 by diver diver
1. Not "20 pentagon border prods", but AT LEAST 20 Pentagon border prods that HAVE MORE THAN LINES ON BORDER. Overall count for Pentagon border and multicolor prods is at least 100. How many such "128K" software for other clones exist - count yourself. I don't know of any that doesn't support Pentagon.
2. My reason says that Pentagon is a superior model to 128K, not equal. It is up to 10% faster in screen operations, plus 2.5% extra rastertime, and its disk is 100x faster than tape.
3. I never said that and never pretended to state that. The categorization is like "the prod runs on XXX", not like "the prod runs on XXX and nowhere else".
diver&moroz1999: TAP is "standard" for one and only reason - it is the only standard storage device for the Spectrum (apart from microdrive, which is too rare at all). There was never any official disk system. And when you take a time and look carefully, from the very 90's the situation is all about loading from the BASIC. There was quite a lot of disk systems widely spreaded around and the only possible compromise was to load from the BASIC (Disciple/+D, Betadisk, FDD3000, D40/D80, MB02 and even some others). There are always some exceptions (like The Lyra II or multi-level games) which make life a bit harder. In this days TAP is just a container for data distribution, the same as TRD. We have support for TAP files on divide (which become mainstream here, we do not use diskettes at all anymore) and now, from the latest betaversion also TRD support in Esxdos. But we still do BASIC loading everywhere it's possible, just to make sure it is easily adaptable to any past, current or even future storage system.

moroz1999: last demos from here (we are alive! and unit42) have both trd version right after it's release.

That's just my 5 cents.
added on the 2013-04-01 13:15:28 by evills evills
@moroz1999, WoS is for gamers. Look for releases at western demoparties instead. They are all TAP and most of them are for 128K. There is 128K TAP scene, it's not a discovery.
There are 1101 prods that need to be categorized.
You can't tell at once does the prod actually REQUIRE Pentagon or not.
But you can tell at once does it RUN on Pentagon or not - just look for file format and the absence in "ehnanced demos" list that I have posted before.
@moroz1999, where the English-speaking ZX Spectrum demoscene actually resides is another question. I suppose nowhere. Something like http://pushnpop.net/ is needed.
diver, Alone Coder and all other zx.pk.ru forumers, this is a shame to read your pstos.
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added on the 2013-04-01 13:45:30 by bulb@ bulb@
That is true, there is no general English Spectrum demoscene portal or forum at all.
added on the 2013-04-01 13:48:09 by evills evills
Okay, too much discussions really. Only one thing is indisputable: to make a 48k category. Let's do it.
added on the 2013-04-01 14:06:07 by diver diver
@diver: I agree, let's see if it affects the scene at all. Normally I expect more 48k+ay products as pouet recognizes it as a pure form.

I'm sure yerzmyey will be very happy :D
added on the 2013-04-01 14:22:17 by ref ref
ref, I'm afraid Alone_Coder will be against splitting to 48k only. He may want to split everything (and at once, with his magic scrpit, and deletion of prods with broken links, lol) or to not split at all.
added on the 2013-04-01 14:25:30 by diver diver
I'm not against. Do something.
wtf, what's wrong with you?
enough MS-Dos / MS-Dos/gus categories.

go and write code!
added on the 2013-04-01 14:37:03 by bulb@ bulb@
So, everyone agreed that we making a first step - a 48k category?
added on the 2013-04-01 14:56:35 by diver diver
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try to use filter kinda "1K intro" WITHOUT 48/128
added on the 2013-04-01 15:01:59 by bulb@ bulb@
yay! But wait :)
What will be the other category? :)

48k compatible / other sinclair? :) Lol we are in big trouble :D
added on the 2013-04-01 18:23:52 by ref ref
Only one thing is indisputable:

This is a mess! :)
added on the 2013-04-01 18:40:54 by ham ham


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