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category: general [glöplog]
skrebbel: by refusing that something good could effectively comes from the messy bunch of more or less realistic ideas thrown on a web board, yes you clearly are closed-minded and blind on that subject, sorry to tell you.
added on the 2008-06-21 18:13:31 by Zest Zest
here's an idea for you.. get a clue!
added on the 2008-06-21 18:25:02 by maali maali
not directly related to anything here, but again: demos:

lighting console (german: lichtorgel ~ light organ)
VS
barrel organ (german: drehorgel)

demos are a bit like drehorgeln. a piece (the sync, the sequence, the assets) and the insturment (hardware/software) combined to a linear form.
there's nothing wrong with that. linear computer pieces. like tracks in music. an organ is a "non-linear device" too, but there's nothing wrong with writing linear compositions for it, in form of a score or as even as a barrel-device (hardware). you restrict the possible set of all notes to a selection or them, order them in sequences, thus this selection becomes an stronger expression than the instrument itself is.

this interaction thing, the extended demo, is just a possible other format, quite appropriate to the interface of today's computers (mouse / keyboard / monitor / speakers). it's normal to interact with them in realtime, so why not build on that an new native format... like demos already are.
early flash sites (these completley unfunctional intro sequences) or the processing stuff is trying to do that, but i have to admit, most of them just annoy me. there's no point with these abstract digital toys. i can feel nothing, and the interaction feels just pointless to me. and then there are games, telling you exactly what's to do. the graphics and the sound are only a framework, the gameplay has focus... but what is gaming? what's happening when you play the game? - you follow rules, predefined rules to win the game. there's good and bad interaction with it. these processing toys don't know that state. but when i compare all that stuff to a normal musical instrument, or a pencil, the question comes up, why the interaction with these intstrument can hook somebody that intensly, altough there is no predefined gameplay? why is it so interesting to play a guitar, why is it cool to draw with "no rules"? ... the answer is complicated, but the main word is >expressiveness<. code can be a game too... why tend some people (here) to spend hours, days, years with code? is it a toy, a game? or an instrument? playing with code can be quite addicting, because you are free to do really everything you want, but you are restricted by global rules (syntax, limits of the hardware, your brain). you play against you, others and the machine at the same time. free play versus fixed rules. there are no clear rules which decide about win or lose, not comparable to football for example, although there is an open field, where you can move freely, you're never that bound to a predefined gameplay with code, nor with a pencil... the rules define only the way to interact, not a final goal... these extended demos would lie between games, editors and (virtual) instruments. play, game, edit... either as a way to record a final version for a compo (a bit like a vj) or in collaboration with others with no need to record, probably even over a network. someone is playing overlays, another one's throwing in 3d meshes, another one modifining a mixer or a beat loop or scene fades... one asset library would have been predefined, to accomplish a fixed mood, samples, textures, photos, models, alorithms etc, and then record a demo as jam alone or togther... to interact more consciously each part must have an appropriate tool/instrument, either as playable keyboard bindings or with a gui. for example, a loop-sequencer, or an envelope tool for effects. or a drag'n'drop library for objects, wierd instruments which would have half-automatic parts, like spikeballs, which evolve automaticly, or interact with other objects in the scene, or even with sound and so one. inter-global jam sessions would be possible that way to excercise some demos, demoish bands. not artsy shit, i hate that snob stuff, more like independent bands., or whatever. just playing..

some fluffily ideas... ban me for that :)

i actually tried a lot already. i'm working on an audio synth library/tool, it's almost finished... but the graphics part is still missing. i can't share it atm, cause i should focus on more serious things now ($ :(). demo making needs much time, cause i'm not a genious coder, really. i can't do it at the moment. but here's a screen shots, just as a proof that i'm working on scene related things...
scrn0,scrn1,loop

it's not only blabla, what Zest tries here is better than any other f*****ing random thread imo. ideas are good. a small wiki would help maybe, to put up unfished thoughts, or even code to share some experiments, unfinished or non-prodable things... maybe
added on the 2008-06-21 18:25:13 by 0rel 0rel
0rel: without meaning to offend, just because something deviates from the norm doesnt mean it's notable.
added on the 2008-06-21 18:30:44 by Gargaj Gargaj
orel, the difference is that your ideas are good and zest's are either obvious or just bad. you're right that proposing ideas are fine, but zest "dreams of a pouet bbs thread leading to a demo", which kind of shows how he really believes that ideas are a substantially hard part of the job. granted, they're some of the most fun parts, but like willbe said they only matter once realised.

zest, i don't refuse that something good can come from ideas on a message board. i refuse that something good can come from YOUR ideas on a message board. and not even that by definition, i'm sure that if you keep going ann

oying the crap out of everybody then at some point you're going to have to output something decent - compare to infinite monkey theorem, so to say.
added on the 2008-06-21 18:35:50 by skrebbel skrebbel
yea, i don't wana be anti-norm, it's just what i'm really interested in. nothing else... i mean, every demo maker should know that interactive state... that's it, that's where the fun is for me. just my opinion...
added on the 2008-06-21 18:42:14 by 0rel 0rel
Quote:
keops you've apparently missed the fact that many scene tools (the scene in its large meaning, not only the demoscene) have emerged from more or less private web boards and threads, not only from the closed mind of a person or a small group.


Have they? I call bullshit and dare to say that over 95% of demotools and even over 90% of all Open Source Software have come from mostly a _single person_ or perhaps a three-people team wanting to do a very specific thing. And releasing it afterward and being open to suggestions from outside doesn't count, because:

What you're proposing is a scenario where random people talk about random stuff on a forum and then other random people say "this sounds cool, let's implement it". And this won't work. Ever. We're talking about a freaking HOBBY here, and hobbies have that one distinct property that they tend to be fun for whoever has them. So people are way more inclined to spend their spare time with what _they_ find worthy.

But feel free to point to actual examples where your ideas have worked. I don't think so.

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and take your familiar example, how many people are working and *debating* together to produce the same game, how many meetings have they done, and aren't there people (usually your bosses) who 'only' think about the gameplay and the technical evolutions, who design the game only in their minds and on papers and organizational charts, without writing any code or modelizing any 3d ?


Apart from the compleeeeeetely neglegible fact that all those people earn money for this...

... yes, there are game designers. The thing that they have NOT in common with eg. morons like you is that
- they not only shoot a few vague ideas into the sky and then blink hopefully into the horrifyingly silent meeting room but actually _design_ something from the beginning to the end. Trust me, a good design document describes the whole game, every screen, every smallest gameplay detail. There's a lot more than "hey let's do a game" in it.
- even if they don't code or do graphics they tend to LISTEN to their coder/artist collegues. That's the one thing you can't... no wait, that was wrong. That's one of the many things you're not able to do, apparently.
- and in the end those game designers are the final instance when it comes to actual game design decisiions. Input from outside is possible, but in the end it's again ONE person doing the main work, so there goes your last collaborative dream out of the window. I'm sorry.

Quote:
and keops it may not be your own case but please think beyond it, some big groups now give a lead designer the responsability to design the demo besides the traditional coder and the musician, because they just aren't enough anymore.


... so? That's still not "random people on teh intarweb" but in most cases a circle of friends working closely together.

Quote:
and look at the most creative group ever, Farbrausch, they have broken the usual standards of a demogroup (like a limited number of active persons) by becoming like a collective, and by publically releasing their internal tools. Like many other groups of course, but FR is the most representative open group imho, while keeping themselves leet and with high standards.


And guess what, our internal mailing list and IRC channel are dead silent. No "collective" discussions about the next demo, no debates, no brainstorming, none of your fancy web 2.0 stuff whatsoever. Just a few people wanting to work towards a common goal. Perhaps the reason why we manage to churn out some stuff.

Quote:
They wouldn't have achieved such a wild palmares if they had kept themselves to their original members, no matter how genius they are. They had to find ideas outside.


We don't "have" to do anything, thank you very much. That's the whole fucking POINT of releasing minus productions and in the end whatever the fuck we want. And we don't find ideas outside, we find PEOPLE. Even if they don't have ideas. And if they do, it's nice.

Quote:
i dream of a demo that would emerge from a pouet thread :p


Dream on, little girl, dream on. Do you want a pony with that?
added on the 2008-06-21 18:46:07 by kb_ kb_
BB Image
added on the 2008-06-21 19:14:25 by willbe willbe
BB Image
added on the 2008-06-23 08:58:19 by hitchhikr hitchhikr
Quote:
zest, i don't refuse that something good can come from ideas on a message board. i refuse that something good can come from YOUR ideas on a message board.

skrebbel you aren't closed-minded at all, right...



0rel: thanks for speaking up and sharing your funky concept of extented demo based on the interaction between some 'instruments', thus i haven't wasted hours facing the negativism of some ayatollahs for nothing :)

i'm looking forward to see a result of your ideas and coding, specially at a demoparty :) your charts with functional boxes are already a nerd's dream :D


kb: thanks for your internal point of view, you're right about the fact that human resources are essential compared to original ideas, and that's exactly one role i would like pouet to play, making distant creators link together : let's face it, a youngster in 2008 won't find teammates willing to make demos in his school or uni, the old days are over, and to make them interested you need new concepts that would inspire and challenge their motivation.

(i'm not talking about my own case, i have my own talented friends, thx)

when veterans point demoparties as the best way to meet other makers and join groups, i'm skeptical : yes to motivate real productions but not really to kickstart new vocations or demogroups, that would rather be the job of more or less specialized sites and boards, and cracktros :p

imho pouet shouldn't become the refuge of oldschoolers who friendly shitchat and that's all :( the technical sub board would be a good first salvation.

you're right also about the free software i was thinking of, as the work of usually one person, but i've witnessed that the original definition of the need usually comes from several members of a forum, bringing sometimes the needed kickstarting data or knowlegde. And those are usually pricelessly helpful to test the different builts over time and report bugs as a free distributed and decentralized QA team.


i know i'm an utopian dreamer, and so what? thinking and talking aren't intrinsically bad, from 90% noise and stupid irrelevant or irrealistic blabla can emerge 10% creative and constructive stuff. I wish the web, or a forum, or pouet could *sometimes* show some collective intelligence, instead of the usual lynching mob syndrom, the herd instinct that comes even from supposedly smart people.
added on the 2008-06-23 10:00:35 by Zest Zest
this pic is priceless hitch :D
added on the 2008-06-23 10:04:43 by Zest Zest
just for the record, by "collective intelligence", you mean "agreeing with you", right? or what?
added on the 2008-06-23 10:06:32 by skrebbel skrebbel
Quote:

when veterans point demoparties as the best way to meet other makers and join groups, i'm skeptical : yes to motivate real productions but not really to kickstart new vocations or demogroups, that would rather be the job of more or less specialized sites and boards, and cracktros :p


Cracktros are so bad nowadays that I wouldn't expect the tired old rasterbar wanking on PC to produce any new sceners.

Also, yes, new groups and new sceners are born at demoparties.

Have you ever been to a demoparty?
Have you ever founded a demogroup?
Have you ever participated in making a demo?
Which demo?
Can we see it?

Quote:

i know i'm an utopian dreamer, and so what? thinking and talking aren't intrinsically bad, from 90% noise and stupid irrelevant or irrealistic blabla can emerge 10% creative and constructive stuff.


You're not an utopian dreamer, except in the sense that you need other people to feed you. I can honestly say that there's not a single creative and constructive idea or sentence in this thread from you.

Quote:

I wish the web, or a forum, or pouet could *sometimes* show some collective intelligence, instead of the usual lynching mob syndrom, the herd instinct that comes even from supposedly smart people.


I wish that the lamer trolls would at least *sometimes* shut the fuck up and either 1) put their money where their mouth is or 2) just go away. I bet clueless people like you do suffer from being attacked by a lynch mob all the time, but this time you really should look into the mirror to find out why.

And to paraphrase my point:

Quote:

i'm looking forward to see a result of your ideas and coding, specially at a demoparty :)


I'm looking forward to seeing the result of your ideas and coding, specifically at a demoparty. Without the smiley, since your trolling is both tiresome and heard-before-already. Put your money where your mouth is or fuck off and find some other community to annoy.
added on the 2008-06-23 10:10:15 by Preacher Preacher
Let's up the ante. Come to Breakpoint or some Finnish party with a decent production and I'll buy you a beer and we can discuss your ideas in a proper manner. In the end, that's what it's all about anyway.
added on the 2008-06-23 10:12:33 by Preacher Preacher
kb: you're dead right about the game designers point.

actually, most of the best game designers i know can code or do graphics, or both. personally i wouldnt hire a designer unless they have a proven track record - even e.g. making their own quake levels or something counts. :) i'd never hire someone who's idea of game design was to write some ideas down on the back of a napkin and tell everyone to get on with it. you know who in my experience make the worst game designers btw? the people who used to be games testers, who don't have any skills of creation on their own. :) (hey, it's almost like the worst demo designers would be people who just sit around watching and talking about them but have no skills of creation on their own, isnt it? :))
oh, and i dont trust game design documents either, although that comes from bitter experience. :)

in creative environments (like game companies, or even pouet!) ideas are plentiful. it's simply the ability and time to implement them and pick the best ones to implement that is difficult.
added on the 2008-06-23 10:22:43 by smash smash
Quote:
i dream of a demo that would emerge from a pouet thread :p


http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=17835
added on the 2008-06-23 10:44:35 by xeron xeron
yeah but on a 'just-a-forum' why not letting them fly freely, that won't hurt anyway :)
added on the 2008-06-23 10:44:48 by Zest Zest
preacher: yes/no/yes/no.

please can we stop that everlasting 'show your penis size before saying anything' game ? and may i remind you that there are plenty of inactive or uncreative guys in demoscene or at demoparties : sysadmins, webdevs, organizers, testers(fans) usually aren't creators but do those guys deserve to be despised ?

you seem to put too much pride in everything. Skrebbel seems to say that i'm putting ideas above everything and specially mine, that's totally wrong, i like digressing that's all, and smash is überright about the fact that an idea is quite nothing without proof. But i still think people should be encouraged to think and talk freely. Yes the demoscene can live through and within the internet evolution.


(thanks for the beer btw :) too bad i can't speak english fluently at an international party)
added on the 2008-06-23 11:02:08 by Zest Zest
s/usually/sometimes/g ... no irony intended.
added on the 2008-06-23 11:04:32 by Zest Zest
Quote:
please can we stop that everlasting 'show your penis size before saying anything' game ?


No.

As far as I and a lot of other people on this site (I assume) are concerned, the weight and value of your words on demomaking is directly proportional to the amount and quality of demos you have produced. No one respects the person without a driver's license in the back seat of a car giving instructions to the driver either.

Quote:
and may i remind you that there are plenty of inactive or uncreative guys in demoscene or at demoparties : sysadmins, webdevs, organizers, testers(fans) usually aren't creators but do those guys deserve to be despised ?


They do deserve to despised if they periodically appear out of nowhere telling people who actually contribute to the scene how they should make demos, without making demos themselves, and annoying the hell out of everybody in the process? Incidentally, there are very few if any people who do that.

Quote:
Yes the demoscene can live through and within the internet evolution.


Can it now? Wow. Now I can finally let my mind rest. Guess why it is so? Because there are people actually producing stuff instead of just talking about it and giving advice.

And regarding English, after a couple of beers, everyone speaks the same language anyway :) I take it that you're not up to it, then?
added on the 2008-06-23 11:18:17 by Preacher Preacher
Zest: have you considered the possibility that these ideas of yours never go far because you're just lazy, and want other people to do all the work for you? That's how it comes across.

If you have ideas, learn how to use some of the tools to make it happen.. it's not hard to learn werkzeug or php or whatever else in a small amount of time. You don't need to be a genius to do it. And you don't need to finish a massive project alone - get a basic framework working that you can show to people, and if it looks good people will surely join up and help you get it done.

All it requires is a little more actual effort, and less waffle.
added on the 2008-06-23 11:23:23 by psonice psonice
preacher you're really touchy, i don't think i've given any advice to anyone specifically, that's the big difference between absurd ep's how to do demos 'right' from his angry consumer pov, and a shared idea box or public agora.

and as i've already said i don't bother much if my own words aren't valued, as i don't know you guys in real life, BUT i do care about the scene, and about pouet, i do care if smart people blockade anything open and collaborative that could spring up from here, just because they like to focus at a stupid nickname, that's apparently easier than thinking.
added on the 2008-06-23 11:35:02 by Zest Zest
Quote:
preacher you're really touchy, i don't think i've given any advice to anyone specifically, that's the big difference between absurd ep's how to do demos 'right' from his angry consumer pov, and a shared idea box or public agora.


Here, from the demomaker standpoint, both of you are exactly the same. You talk much, accomplish little and have absolutely no clue or valuable to offer. Now, if you care about the scene, how about doing something for it, then? Instead of just talking.
added on the 2008-06-23 11:42:41 by Preacher Preacher
then you are denying the intrinsic concept of a public board.
added on the 2008-06-23 11:45:12 by Zest Zest
guys chill, have a beer and keep making (or start making) demos..
added on the 2008-06-23 11:46:11 by uncle-x uncle-x

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