What do you want a new Scene.org to be like?
category: general [glöplog]
Also, there will always be an element of administration, if ever as to homogeneize, and correctly categorize releases.
scamp: what you're talking about is the actual data transfer - not the validation. getting the data there is the party organizer's job, no problem with that, and the aforementioned protocols might be helpful, no question.
the main problem here is that the data uploaded will 90% fail some sort of sanity test (wrong filenames, wrong folder names, wrong archive formats, etc.), and THAT, the processing of incoming, is what should not be automated to the extent of what was said before.
the main problem here is that the data uploaded will 90% fail some sort of sanity test (wrong filenames, wrong folder names, wrong archive formats, etc.), and THAT, the processing of incoming, is what should not be automated to the extent of what was said before.
knos: It's not my intention to step on your shoes, but seriously, WTF dude. I suggest you have a look at scene.org uptime stats around easter for the last 5 years in the first place.
No clue what has biten you, but that "five years ago I asked for a CD" story is silly and not quite the most constructive point in context of this current thread.
If that's the way to respond to constructive criticisms in a thread that's called "What do you want a new Scene.org to be like?", then scene.org administration has both an administration AND and an attitude problem.
No clue what has biten you, but that "five years ago I asked for a CD" story is silly and not quite the most constructive point in context of this current thread.
If that's the way to respond to constructive criticisms in a thread that's called "What do you want a new Scene.org to be like?", then scene.org administration has both an administration AND and an attitude problem.
Gargaj: The whole categorization thing is a different topic and a matter of taste. As a party organizer I obviously prefer directory names to reflect the actual rules of our party (think of Real Wild vs Wild/Console, for example) and dislike scene.org admins to change them to a possibly different meaning. Some form of standard for all parties would be nice here, but probably that's unrealistic.
But that's not what I've been talking about anyway, I was about "getting the releases uploaded automatically and in time using a defined way for all party organizers".
While I applaud that knos is happy that ASM is able to upload their releases, in reality most parties I've attended over here for the last few years did not manage that flawlessly, and did run into admin problems. Hey, isn't it strange that even the Evoke staff, who runs a scene.org mirror, had to create ftp accounts at untergrund.net several times in the past because they couldn't get their stuff to scene.org? I can't imagine on the parties during the last years how often I heard some organizer shouting "who has got an scene.org upload account?" or "I can't upload, the maximum number of connections of scene.org is reached!" etc...
But hey yeah, the refusal to even admit there's something to improve here is a pretty good explanation on why that's sucking to no avail for years already ;)
But that's not what I've been talking about anyway, I was about "getting the releases uploaded automatically and in time using a defined way for all party organizers".
While I applaud that knos is happy that ASM is able to upload their releases, in reality most parties I've attended over here for the last few years did not manage that flawlessly, and did run into admin problems. Hey, isn't it strange that even the Evoke staff, who runs a scene.org mirror, had to create ftp accounts at untergrund.net several times in the past because they couldn't get their stuff to scene.org? I can't imagine on the parties during the last years how often I heard some organizer shouting "who has got an scene.org upload account?" or "I can't upload, the maximum number of connections of scene.org is reached!" etc...
But hey yeah, the refusal to even admit there's something to improve here is a pretty good explanation on why that's sucking to no avail for years already ;)
it's always nice to hear.
The thing is that each time I attended a party and offered cooperation as a scene.org staff member to get the releases smoothly I obtained the means to do this independently and in the most unintrusive way for the organizers. This was the first time I encountered organizers who didn't give a damn about that. Which I found strange considering the network access was through a wifi connection in the next village.
So mm, we're trying to be here to help, and to answers whenever people ask for it. It's up to you if you ask for help or not, just don't be surprised if we're surprised to hear about your woes on a pouet.net thread.
When it's easy to send a mail to ftp@scene.org.
So mm, we're trying to be here to help, and to answers whenever people ask for it. It's up to you if you ask for help or not, just don't be surprised if we're surprised to hear about your woes on a pouet.net thread.
When it's easy to send a mail to ftp@scene.org.
knos: If you are unaware that this thread was started by scene.org staff, obviously unwilling or unable to understand what's written inside it, how about a nice cup of stfu while waiting outside? :)
Obviously in your "staff"'s left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Obviously in your "staff"'s left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
..and the next time you wish to complain about some Breakpoint organizer not burning you a disc of releases 5 years ago, please be so nice to write to
Breakpoint Organzing
CD Burning Service
Basilikastr. 3
55411 Bingen am Rhein
But only on mondays. The rest of the week our preferred communication channel is to fill out a contact form on our website, but only while it's down. Unless another staff member tells you the exact opposite.
Remember, we are only trying to help!!!11
(Ok, I guess it's time to pouetize this...)
Breakpoint Organzing
CD Burning Service
Basilikastr. 3
55411 Bingen am Rhein
But only on mondays. The rest of the week our preferred communication channel is to fill out a contact form on our website, but only while it's down. Unless another staff member tells you the exact opposite.
Remember, we are only trying to help!!!11
(Ok, I guess it's time to pouetize this...)
How about listening? What I'm saying is, if you're having an issue while organizing breakpoint, why wait until a thread is opened on pouet.net to a mention all the issues you have had, instead of firing a mail to us in advance?
We have been setting up specific ftp accounts for party organizers who have asked for it, for example. (in advance)
We have been setting up specific ftp accounts for party organizers who have asked for it, for example. (in advance)
knos: In case you still haven't found out - this thread opened by gloom was supposed to be a "what can be improved"-thread. A bunch of people pointed out that the process of getting releases up to scene.org is too bureaucratic right now. Other people pointed out that before scene.org thinking about how to bloat the site they should care about the system becoming more stable and fail-safe. For a scene's all-time release archive site uptime is a top issue, as is getting releases.
I also explained that Breakpoint is less affected by this issue, because we don't use your services (as they've been down during Breakpoint, sometimes for several weeks, multiple times), but use our own, working and stable FTP mirroring network.
In other words: Breakpoint is not affected of you obviously being arrogant, ignorant, incompetent and unwilling to accept criticisms. :)
There is no current issue that anyone would need to write to ftp@scene.org about right now. It's a feedback and discussion thread. Got it now?
I also explained that Breakpoint is less affected by this issue, because we don't use your services (as they've been down during Breakpoint, sometimes for several weeks, multiple times), but use our own, working and stable FTP mirroring network.
In other words: Breakpoint is not affected of you obviously being arrogant, ignorant, incompetent and unwilling to accept criticisms. :)
There is no current issue that anyone would need to write to ftp@scene.org about right now. It's a feedback and discussion thread. Got it now?
You got your point across perfectly.
kusma: ty for the reply. actually i wasn't referring to an upload method in particular (i'm on the rsync bandwagon anyway).
gargaj: i see your point - but i think some failure points could be checked automatically during the upload of the entry to the party system or before uploading to scene.org ; besides the upload...
the whole thing could be stripped down to: could metadata be used for besides searching scene.org itself?
gargaj: i see your point - but i think some failure points could be checked automatically during the upload of the entry to the party system or before uploading to scene.org ; besides the upload...
the whole thing could be stripped down to: could metadata be used for besides searching scene.org itself?
scamp, nicolas: wow there. i casually bumped into a scamp woeing for bandwidth problems on irc last year right after breakpoint and offered to setup the rsync to scene.org on the spot. i dont see how we cant repeat this issue again this year. who should contact who and in what models shouldnt really matter, there has obviously been some misscomunication in the past with breakpoint organizing in respect to getting the prods to scene.org asap, which was agravated by the fact our server died during easter 2 years in a row. lets not turn this into an incident, the only people who suffer from this misscomunication are the people wanting to see the prods asap. we are in a position to work together and make that happen more fluently, lets try.
i like the idea of direct partymeister integration to pouet btw. just need to sort out the online/offline issues and proper group/compo sorting. gasman would you be willing to work on implementing this? it would be easily reusable for demozoo later when it's more advanced.. would help pouet visitors get the demos faster in the meantime.
i like the idea of direct partymeister integration to pouet btw. just need to sort out the online/offline issues and proper group/compo sorting. gasman would you be willing to work on implementing this? it would be easily reusable for demozoo later when it's more advanced.. would help pouet visitors get the demos faster in the meantime.
Quote:
the main problem here is that the data uploaded will 90% fail some sort of sanity test (wrong filenames, wrong folder names, wrong archive formats, etc.), and THAT, the processing of incoming, is what should not be automated to the extent of what was said before.
100% agreed with gargaj here. a bit more cooperation from the orgas' side on that sort of thing would be nice. like, perhaps, enforcing more strict uplaod rules for party contributors. sceners who use spaces in filenames are lamers anyway :P
dip: just wondering, what bbs you gonna upload them anyway?-D
scamp calling someone else arrogant. priceless.
Why not let just parties upload their junk "somewhere" onto scene.org and let everyone download straight off (kinda like incoming atm). This links could easily be re-made into "proper" scene.org links once the staff got all the sorting done (yes i am talking about a "tool" here, you can add it to pouët as well!) . Of course it will create some broken links on non scene.org affiliated sites but who cares?
Sure, Breakpoint got this handled really well. But Untergrund is somewhat a "one man show" which probably will work better than scene.org ever will due to hardware resources and yadda yadda. But what happens if scamp is not willing to do so? Say some legal/economics problems or just scene pension or worse case: physical accident.
However, I think we all can see that scene.org should spend time on improving the file handling and sorting procedures instead of expanding with new features.
Sure, Breakpoint got this handled really well. But Untergrund is somewhat a "one man show" which probably will work better than scene.org ever will due to hardware resources and yadda yadda. But what happens if scamp is not willing to do so? Say some legal/economics problems or just scene pension or worse case: physical accident.
However, I think we all can see that scene.org should spend time on improving the file handling and sorting procedures instead of expanding with new features.
Just my too cents. This probably comes pretty late. I would really really like to a have a system similar to movie databases (e.g. like omdb.org):
Linking:
- Production - job - person
- production - groups
- group - role - person
Production should have:
- versions (preview, final, etc)
- related productions
- similar productions (which can be add and voted anonymously like comments on youtube or google groups)
- unlimited screenshots (if some people are willing to upload them)
- unlimited links (e.g. pouet, groupsite, youtube, music, etc)
- tagging (e.g. "Tunnel effect","slow", "black/white", "breakbeat", etc.)
- hardware testing (e.g. a textfield for the hardward with a drop down list like "crash", "slow", "working")
- change requests (changes and uploads should be possible for everyone, but have to be reviewed by moderators)
- The site should have much clearer design (I could give it a try, if you want me to).
- Improved search function
- Different display styles of result-lists (e.g. as thumbnail gallery).
However the problem I see is, that most of the requests would better fit into pouet.net. For the scene as a whole we should improve the db-functions at pouet.net and concentrate on data storage and archiving at scene.org. Adding too much functionality to scene.org will distract too much attention from here. (But on the other hand, bitfellas and 4sceners do the same thing and traffic seems not to be decreasing here).
Linking:
- Production - job - person
- production - groups
- group - role - person
Production should have:
- versions (preview, final, etc)
- related productions
- similar productions (which can be add and voted anonymously like comments on youtube or google groups)
- unlimited screenshots (if some people are willing to upload them)
- unlimited links (e.g. pouet, groupsite, youtube, music, etc)
- tagging (e.g. "Tunnel effect","slow", "black/white", "breakbeat", etc.)
- hardware testing (e.g. a textfield for the hardward with a drop down list like "crash", "slow", "working")
- change requests (changes and uploads should be possible for everyone, but have to be reviewed by moderators)
- The site should have much clearer design (I could give it a try, if you want me to).
- Improved search function
- Different display styles of result-lists (e.g. as thumbnail gallery).
However the problem I see is, that most of the requests would better fit into pouet.net. For the scene as a whole we should improve the db-functions at pouet.net and concentrate on data storage and archiving at scene.org. Adding too much functionality to scene.org will distract too much attention from here. (But on the other hand, bitfellas and 4sceners do the same thing and traffic seems not to be decreasing here).
pixtur: demozoo.org, and...
...yes please :-)
Quote:
The site should have much clearer design (I could give it a try, if you want me to).
...yes please :-)
I'd also like to take the chance to stress the point that demozoo is a very good start. Please talk, collaborate and integrate before reinventing the wheel.
Scamp's upload suggestion also seems to make a lot of sense.
In addition I would like to be able to personalize my experience. E.g. on Pouet I know that posts of certain people are not relevant to me. I'd like to flag these authors as noise-creators and thus ban them from stealing my time. As a side-effect this would automatically create a shitlist of people whose posts nobody wants to read. And while climbing up in this troll hierarchy, you are getting more and more decoupled from you audience, which could lead to a self-healing effect.
Scamp's upload suggestion also seems to make a lot of sense.
In addition I would like to be able to personalize my experience. E.g. on Pouet I know that posts of certain people are not relevant to me. I'd like to flag these authors as noise-creators and thus ban them from stealing my time. As a side-effect this would automatically create a shitlist of people whose posts nobody wants to read. And while climbing up in this troll hierarchy, you are getting more and more decoupled from you audience, which could lead to a self-healing effect.
ps: Yup, the rsync stuff worked pretty nice. Which is why I was suggesting to implement something rsync-based in a standardized way for all partys that wish to use that for getting their releases into incoming timely, instead of this being an Breakpoint-exclusive... (this thread is about how to improve scene.org, not Breakpoint after all).
hollowman: Being arrogant doesn't really stop me from blaming other people to be arrogant, too (ok, actually it's rather been a matter of ignorance)... ;)
stefan: Very valid point regarding untergrund.net. I'm working on this however - untergrund.net these days is part of my company's monitored HA-setup, which is meant to live on even if I should decease (well, unless a followup-CEO decides that it doesn't make sense to sponsor this, which at least with the current number of sceners working here is quite unlikely ;). However, it's not meant to be a replacement for scene.org anyway. IMHO it should be scene.org's primary job to have a forever-running stable all-time archive of the scene's productions. As a registered non-profit entity they are suited for such a long-time task much better than my company is.
hollowman: Being arrogant doesn't really stop me from blaming other people to be arrogant, too (ok, actually it's rather been a matter of ignorance)... ;)
stefan: Very valid point regarding untergrund.net. I'm working on this however - untergrund.net these days is part of my company's monitored HA-setup, which is meant to live on even if I should decease (well, unless a followup-CEO decides that it doesn't make sense to sponsor this, which at least with the current number of sceners working here is quite unlikely ;). However, it's not meant to be a replacement for scene.org anyway. IMHO it should be scene.org's primary job to have a forever-running stable all-time archive of the scene's productions. As a registered non-profit entity they are suited for such a long-time task much better than my company is.
just a note, before you all get cracking on rsyncs and what not - please do keep /incoming open for people like us who run compos mostly with floppies, cdrs and usb sticks :-)
(outline organising, that is)
(outline organising, that is)
Summing up my suggestions so they are not forgotten by the flames above:
1.) Start mirroring the whole scene.org setup to another datacenter, not just the FTP. Setup some failover procedure, DNS-based should do. This would fix the issue of the scene.org server sometimes being down for days or weeks, and would provide security in case something happens to the main scene.org server (which, IIRC, is not placed in a secured environment). (Obviously scene.org hosted sites like pouet.net would benefit from this, too)
2.) Implement a non-bureaucratic and effective way for party orgas to upload their release archive to scene.org. I'd suggest an rsync-based setup which as it allows fully automatic uploads from a party's FTP server even before that archive is completed and doesn't have issues with files changing during the party. The moment the party closes scene.org will have a complete, cleaned up set of files.
(Also see additional ideas by several people on in this thread on the topic of uploading, lots of useful input to think about.)
My impression is that quite a bunch of sceners at least in here share an opinion of "please focus on improving on your current jobs instead of extending your work set / bloat the site".
1.) Start mirroring the whole scene.org setup to another datacenter, not just the FTP. Setup some failover procedure, DNS-based should do. This would fix the issue of the scene.org server sometimes being down for days or weeks, and would provide security in case something happens to the main scene.org server (which, IIRC, is not placed in a secured environment). (Obviously scene.org hosted sites like pouet.net would benefit from this, too)
2.) Implement a non-bureaucratic and effective way for party orgas to upload their release archive to scene.org. I'd suggest an rsync-based setup which as it allows fully automatic uploads from a party's FTP server even before that archive is completed and doesn't have issues with files changing during the party. The moment the party closes scene.org will have a complete, cleaned up set of files.
(Also see additional ideas by several people on in this thread on the topic of uploading, lots of useful input to think about.)
My impression is that quite a bunch of sceners at least in here share an opinion of "please focus on improving on your current jobs instead of extending your work set / bloat the site".
I don't need any additional services on scene.org either. Please focus on providing releases. As already suggested, sometimes better search possibilities could be useful improvements.
gasman: I am not sure, if this is the right thread to discuss this, but hey: it's pouet...
I already noticed demozoo and think it is a very good starting point from the database site. However, I probably have a problem with distracting too much attention from pouet. I check pouet pretty regulary and automatically scan the released production list. In a perfect world we probably would merge pouet and demozoo in that all new releases are automatically inserted at demozoo. Probably even with comments and stuff.
If the demozoo interface would improve and get more and more features, isn't there the danger, that pouet.net will be reduced to the "Random image thread"? Right now I pretty much enjoy the fact, that there is a single site for discussing a scene production. Splitting this over too many sites (e.g. pouet+bitfellas+youtube+xplsv.tv+4sceners.org) might be a real drawback.
Are there any restrictions with automatically ripping content from pouet (rating, comments and stuff)? I am not talking about copyright issues but about fairness.
And how to keep the stuff synchronized?
I already noticed demozoo and think it is a very good starting point from the database site. However, I probably have a problem with distracting too much attention from pouet. I check pouet pretty regulary and automatically scan the released production list. In a perfect world we probably would merge pouet and demozoo in that all new releases are automatically inserted at demozoo. Probably even with comments and stuff.
If the demozoo interface would improve and get more and more features, isn't there the danger, that pouet.net will be reduced to the "Random image thread"? Right now I pretty much enjoy the fact, that there is a single site for discussing a scene production. Splitting this over too many sites (e.g. pouet+bitfellas+youtube+xplsv.tv+4sceners.org) might be a real drawback.
Are there any restrictions with automatically ripping content from pouet (rating, comments and stuff)? I am not talking about copyright issues but about fairness.
And how to keep the stuff synchronized?