Scrollers
category: general [glöplog]
so you're really saying that we're not? fuck you then
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This relentless fixation that some people seem to have with building databases is why I keep changing my handle. See this means the database people always end up listing me under several names, because despite their information fetish they don't care enough about who I am or what I do/say/release to keep up. The people who do care will know. To the rest, fuckings.
So what you're saying is, you go to special efforts to make the demoscene needlessly confusing and cliquish, and difficult for outsiders to follow properly?
Well done, you just described exactly why we need databases.
Is there like a uniform I have to wear?
I disagree with influence device.
Who doesn't. ;) But just keep in mind, I didn't sign up for those databases, so what obligation do I have to conform to their template.
And I DON'T try to make it hard for outsiders, I just try to keep the scene personal. For me. I didn't join all those years ago to perform for a bunch of people who have no idea what a demo is anyway.
In fact, this reminds me of the times I've heard Amiga users, otherwise completely disconnected from the scene, complain that Amiga sceners aren't "pushing the platform forward" by using the latest Amiga hardware. As if that's an obligation that comes with being a scener (it's not, JSYK, read your contract).
But anyway, they're talking about building an online database of ripped content now. That's hardly even legal! Ok, not that anyone would care about the legality of it, that's true, but it certainly isn't a cool thing to do. Hence all the measures people take to prevent ripping.
And I DON'T try to make it hard for outsiders, I just try to keep the scene personal. For me. I didn't join all those years ago to perform for a bunch of people who have no idea what a demo is anyway.
In fact, this reminds me of the times I've heard Amiga users, otherwise completely disconnected from the scene, complain that Amiga sceners aren't "pushing the platform forward" by using the latest Amiga hardware. As if that's an obligation that comes with being a scener (it's not, JSYK, read your contract).
But anyway, they're talking about building an online database of ripped content now. That's hardly even legal! Ok, not that anyone would care about the legality of it, that's true, but it certainly isn't a cool thing to do. Hence all the measures people take to prevent ripping.
I'm not expecting you to conform to any template. In case you got the wrong idea - I'm not trying to guilt-trip you into never changing your nick ever again. I'm just pointing out that if you're changing your nick purely to try and throw databases off (which is what you seemed to be saying before) then you're wasting your time - because while there are people around who 1) *do* see the value of having accurate databases, and 2) are interested in your work enough to follow your name changes, then the databases will keep up.
(Incidentally, I'm in category 1 but not 2 here. Without consulting any databases, I'm aware of one of your nicks besides the one you're currently using, and I know of precisely one demo that you've worked on. It was a very good demo, and I voted for it. I do know what a demo is, I just don't follow the Amiga scene all that closely, you see. If and when I ever do, I hope it'll be easy for me to get information about it. Of course, here I'm assuming you're only active on the Amiga, which I don't know for sure. I could find out though. With a good database.)
If you want to change your nick, that's fine by me. Hell, it just so happens that I'm building a database that can handle multiple nicks properly. It's important to me that Demozoo gets those sorts of details right, because I want to document what happens on the actual demoscene, not some bastardised faked-up scene where everyone has one nick, parties happen no more than once a year, groups never break up or reform, and Rob Is Jarig doesn't get entered into every demo compo ever. If you do something spontaneous that doesn't fit into my model, then it's up to me to fix the model, not to stop you doing unpredictable things. And since you bring up the subject of what motivates you make stuff on the scene: Yes, I *enjoy* building databases. It's an interesting technical challenge, because I'm tracking something that's living, dynamic and volatile, not just widgets off an assembly line.
(Incidentally, I'm in category 1 but not 2 here. Without consulting any databases, I'm aware of one of your nicks besides the one you're currently using, and I know of precisely one demo that you've worked on. It was a very good demo, and I voted for it. I do know what a demo is, I just don't follow the Amiga scene all that closely, you see. If and when I ever do, I hope it'll be easy for me to get information about it. Of course, here I'm assuming you're only active on the Amiga, which I don't know for sure. I could find out though. With a good database.)
If you want to change your nick, that's fine by me. Hell, it just so happens that I'm building a database that can handle multiple nicks properly. It's important to me that Demozoo gets those sorts of details right, because I want to document what happens on the actual demoscene, not some bastardised faked-up scene where everyone has one nick, parties happen no more than once a year, groups never break up or reform, and Rob Is Jarig doesn't get entered into every demo compo ever. If you do something spontaneous that doesn't fit into my model, then it's up to me to fix the model, not to stop you doing unpredictable things. And since you bring up the subject of what motivates you make stuff on the scene: Yes, I *enjoy* building databases. It's an interesting technical challenge, because I'm tracking something that's living, dynamic and volatile, not just widgets off an assembly line.
I'm tempted to say "just watch the actual demos featuring the former scrollers" but well... seems like I said it anyway :)
And yes, enough with the databases already. Make demos, not databases.
And yes, enough with the databases already. Make demos, not databases.
Oh, and about the legalities of creating a database of ripped scrolltext: I'd say that it's not really any more or less legal than distributing complete demos that don't have a clear copyright licence attached: i.e. 99% of all scene productions ever. The rules about what you can and can't do with scene-produced content within the scene have never really been rooted in copyright law, and are more about "will it result in everyone calling me a lamer".
That said, it's not high on my list of priorities to build such a thing - I've got plenty of more important things to implement first - and while I can see the attraction in systematically scouring texts for things such as group member lists and release dates (once we've exhausted more conventional means of getting that information), I don't see a huge amount of value in keeping the text online and searchable.
That said, it's not high on my list of priorities to build such a thing - I've got plenty of more important things to implement first - and while I can see the attraction in systematically scouring texts for things such as group member lists and release dates (once we've exhausted more conventional means of getting that information), I don't see a huge amount of value in keeping the text online and searchable.
Gasman: "enough with the databases already" was not aimt at you btw ;)
I had the idea for this thread as I'm interested in cracking (and don't forget packing!) groups and their cracktros as well as demos with scrollers (cracked games were aplenty on the Atari ST as you all know and this is where I started with computers back when I was seven or whatever). As most of you all probably know too, there was quite a lot of rivalry between cracking groups. The scrollers these groups wrote was largely (but not exclusively) about these rivalries so cataloguing these messages is for me digging up, analysing (can't think of a better word :/) and enjoying this history (80s teen angst yay!) by having something to hand to make this this easier rather than having to watch the scroller and all the inconveniences that entails (too fast/slow, too graphically complex to read, having to watch from the beginning each time you miss something etc.). Bare in mind that a lot of cracktros were just a picture and the scroller.
Personally I like having this information in a more convenient form (what this thread is all about) but at the same time I completely understand the points put against this idea. There's something about having things 'locked away' in the demos so that they remain a mystery until you watch them. I also agree with the point that what was written in the scroller applied when it was written and to read it now is to lack the relevance and finally it's also always cooler to 'just get on with it' (i.e. the creating) and sod the clear up (very much an artist's mentality) but this leads me to a question which is a bit ironic: I'm not an artist but I love Pouet. Isn't Pouet a database that's cataloguing things about the scene? Do some sceners then not like Pouet for the reasons put against this thread? Please respond as I'm open to all opinions and can usually be found sitting on the proverbial fence most of the time.
Personally I like having this information in a more convenient form (what this thread is all about) but at the same time I completely understand the points put against this idea. There's something about having things 'locked away' in the demos so that they remain a mystery until you watch them. I also agree with the point that what was written in the scroller applied when it was written and to read it now is to lack the relevance and finally it's also always cooler to 'just get on with it' (i.e. the creating) and sod the clear up (very much an artist's mentality) but this leads me to a question which is a bit ironic: I'm not an artist but I love Pouet. Isn't Pouet a database that's cataloguing things about the scene? Do some sceners then not like Pouet for the reasons put against this thread? Please respond as I'm open to all opinions and can usually be found sitting on the proverbial fence most of the time.
MagikGimp: the idea is not bad but it doesn't belong here imo. Why don't you start a website about it? I'm pretty sure a lot of people would contribute.
Oh, don't worry, I had no intention of incorporating it into Pouet, I just started a thread here because it's a scener haunt so I knew I'd get a lot of valuable info. You won't see anything from me for a while yet, I need to learn how to do it all first.
To Influence Device:
Yeah, and HVSC is another "online database of ripped content", and it is thus illegal, right? Nevertheless, the original authors seem to be quite happy about the existence of such "ripping project" and I haven't heard anyone rant that these songs should not be listened separately but only in their original demo/game context.
About "readme" files: you seem to be ignoring the fact that in the old days, scrollers were the most relevant method of delivering it. On the C-64, putting the message in an executable is a much less clumsy solution than using a plain text file. But does this mean that the message "should be read" only within the context of the demo that carries it? I don't think so.
Yeah, and HVSC is another "online database of ripped content", and it is thus illegal, right? Nevertheless, the original authors seem to be quite happy about the existence of such "ripping project" and I haven't heard anyone rant that these songs should not be listened separately but only in their original demo/game context.
About "readme" files: you seem to be ignoring the fact that in the old days, scrollers were the most relevant method of delivering it. On the C-64, putting the message in an executable is a much less clumsy solution than using a plain text file. But does this mean that the message "should be read" only within the context of the demo that carries it? I don't think so.
"delivering it" = "delivering a message"
I'd also like to state that I think the possibility for objective demoscene research is quite important. This is why databases are great, and this is why I think even more material should be brought together in a research-friendly form by projects like this.
I'd also like to state that I think the possibility for objective demoscene research is quite important. This is why databases are great, and this is why I think even more material should be brought together in a research-friendly form by projects like this.
databases are so cheap nowadays, why not use them to not forget what we like instead of boring business data ? ;)
even if MagikGimp's idea is a bit tedious and quite useless, that's exactly the magic of the intarweb :D
even if MagikGimp's idea is a bit tedious and quite useless, that's exactly the magic of the intarweb :D
I like it! Go for it, MagikGimp
its a bit too de-constructive, whats next start address's of demos or the memory location of every routinue/fonts etc used in a demo? or how much cpu time a routinue takes ? lol
outside of the demo, it would be very out of context. If someone did start all that rubbish, have to write scrollers encrypted and then decode them.
who would want to read my mindless cr** that i've put in a few demos years ago.lol
some people have too much time on their hands, if that started.
outside of the demo, it would be very out of context. If someone did start all that rubbish, have to write scrollers encrypted and then decode them.
who would want to read my mindless cr** that i've put in a few demos years ago.lol
some people have too much time on their hands, if that started.
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even if MagikGimp's idea is a bit tedious and quite useless
Me to a T mate!
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some people have too much time on their hands
Yup, that too...
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Or maybe the demoscene is more fun if you try to be part of it.
Yeah, because all the people who actually contribute to the scene (say; uncle-x, smash, gargaj, ryg, el-bee etc) change their handles _all the time_ on pouet.
Oh wait. No, they don't. They focus less on CRAP and more on DEMOS.
