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a reply to manwe

category: general [glöplog]
Hey, guys, it's really interesting to read your discussion about technologies and limitations, but you should have renamed the topic to "what is demoscene?" instead of "replay to manwe", because here is almost nothing what I told about.

Now, a few droplets of oil in your bonfire, if you waiting for it :)

Kb, Smash, Reed, you where a productive tracker musicians, it's a fact. So, you have a different way of thinking then people who never tracked much. Are you sure you could produce a scene music today, in case you had no tracker experience in 90s?

I see the true in almost every post in this topic (even if they looks contradictory), but I want to point first to Kmuland's and Doom's posts - these guys trying to see from the other "non scene" side. Non scene people had another experience, inspiration, motivation, purposes, etc. It all makes a matter. Guess, active scene life simply can't makes no influence on your art, on your way of thinking.

So, Reed, your first post was selfishness a bit. You know, a great painter can say "what the fucking reason to draw a simple circles, if I can move over it and draw the portraits?". Now imagine: a lot of people can't even draw a circle. Also, that painter will never draw the portrait until he studied line and circle drawing in painter school. The same here. Do you think everybody can produce the scene music with modern technologies? Of course, not. Tracker was a key. It's a historic evidence. And, believe it or not, tracker is still a key to the scene for some newbies, even in 2006, it still works.
added on the 2006-11-06 21:53:41 by Manwe Manwe
I wonder what you mean by scene music. Do we have a sort of miscommunication going on there?

Is scene-music the sort of music groo made before going wild? The 4 channel moody new-wave tracks with a minor chord progression? Using ST-01 samples? Is scene music electronic? Do all the funk track on the amiga count as scene music?

Or is it doskpop? Or the multichannel modules sort of pointless trials at doing orchestral music/imitating john williams?

Is the scene.org best soundtrack award scene music?

More importantly, are any of the soundtrack from this years demo-winners scene music?

And if what's so special about them to warrant them a "scene" tag?
added on the 2006-11-06 22:10:51 by _-_-__ _-_-__
You know, "scene" is not a style of music. Do not think about styles at all, please. In "real" world, "commercial music" or "underground music" - it's all not about the styles.
Anyway, ask KB and other people here who told about "scene music" before I quote them. They should known better. If you still have no answer :)
added on the 2006-11-06 22:59:45 by Manwe Manwe
Manwe: if there wouldn't have been trackers it'd been midi (or some other) then. I don't see your point in praising that a tracker is the de facto thing and only way to achieve making good music.

here's a little hint: It's about getting experience and not about what tool you're using for to get it.
added on the 2006-11-06 23:08:55 by waffle waffle
manwe: you say "scene" is not a style of music, but still you say in your previous post "do you think everybody can produce the scene music with modern technologies"? personally speaking, I'd like to know what you mean with scene music.

We've had eternal discussions (with no conclusions) on Nectarine (hey Truck?) before, so I don't think we'll find one here. But I have to say I fully agree with Reed, Smash, Kb and Truck on the points made so far.

I totally don't understand to this very day why people on Pouet only say "this is the way music is supposed to be" or "this is the way demos have to be".... but I guess that only makes me open to flaming... so there you go. :)
added on the 2006-11-06 23:11:40 by Axel Axel
Waffle, I never told about "good" or "bad" music. When it became clear, finally?! You're right about getting experience, but you should think about midi once more: what it was in 1986-1992 (I remember very well because I used it then), what kind of experience it can gave and for whom.

Axel, Knos - about "scene music". Do you have your own definition on it? Just asking.

And why don't you count (or do you?) Iron Maden or Britney Spears or Underworld like "scene music"? Because they are "pro"? Oh, no, seriously. It was said before, some ex-tracker musicians became the part of that "pro" music industry, but someone still like to count them as "scene musicians". Or not. So, what? On the other hand, you can download tons of free music from unknown artists from free hostings (like mp3.com was) - should you call it "scene music" just because most of them are lame and homemade? Guess, you shouldn't, again.
So, why you asking me "what you mean" instead of telling me what you mean? :)

Well, I told before about experience, inspiration, motivation, purposes, etc. The base. The Culture, understand? You are European people, aren't you? Culture, subculture. Why need I explain the meaning of this word to you?
added on the 2006-11-07 00:19:40 by Manwe Manwe
tone:

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so, reed, ur message upstairs about has sense, but it's unclear, who u are replying to.

manwe.

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but limitations still rock, and if not, why u were chopping guitars for 64ks and tweaking bleeps for c64 demos, instead of recording some another blaxploitation movie soundtrack? it for sure would sound better.

because i used to enjoy tracking. let me repeat what i said in the original reply. hell, i'll even make it bold:

i'm not saying tracker music is stupid. i'm saying it's stupid to appreciate musicians only if they do tracker music.

people can do whatever the fuck they want as far as i'm concerned. if you want to use trackers, use trackers. if you want to use softsynths, use softsynths. if you want to go to vegas and get married with a mexican midget, go to vegas and get married with a mexican midget. just don't say that one of those things is the only correct way to do things within the scene. (i'd opt for the midget)
added on the 2006-11-07 05:26:24 by reed reed
manwe:

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why we have a C64-like sound in almost every music compo on demoparties? How such music can pass a preselect (Assembly MP3 compo, for example)? May be sceners just love it, even if the World is full of a "better" things?

what does this have to do with anything?

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There is no reason to release such things on pouet.net, for example. But tracker music (and realtime softsynth-based music as well), especially with code and graphics is always welcome, isn't it?

see kb's reply. if a piece of music is released for the demoscene, for instance as a demo soundtrack, i really don't see why the format or the tools used to produce the music should matter.

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What the hell - "perspective"?

the lack of perspective shows in, for instance,
a) judging music by its format instead of the musical values like people do in real world, and
b) appreciating an artist only because he's made classic tracker modules 10-15 years ago.

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Are you sure you could produce a scene music today, in case you had no tracker experience in 90s? [...] Guess, active scene life simply can't makes no influence on your art, on your way of thinking.

i don't see your point. of course my tracker experience in the 90s has had an effect on what i've done later on. as i mentioned before, because everyone used to have an amiga, trackers made it relatively easy to get into making music. had i not been able to learn trackers (e.g. supposing i hadn't had a computer at all), it's impossible to say if i would've found another way to make music. but that's a moot point, and completely irrelevant, because...

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So, Reed, your first post was selfishness a bit. You know, a great painter can say "what the fucking reason to draw a simple circles, if I can move over it and draw the portraits?"

... i never implied that.

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Do you think everybody can produce the scene music with modern technologies? Of course, not. Tracker was a key. It's a historic evidence. And, believe it or not, tracker is still a key to the scene for some newbies, even in 2006, it still works.

well slap my ass and call me judy. again, it all boils down to what you consider scene music. also, by "everybody", do you mean literally everybody, or the potential music makers out there? in my honest opinion, you really don't need a tracker background to do scene music for today's scene. sure, if you want to take part in tracker/sid/whatever compos, it helps to know stuff beforehand instead of learning an obsolete format from scratch, but for instance delivering a demo soundtrack needs no tracker experience.

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It was said before, some ex-tracker musicians became the part of that "pro" music industry, but someone still like to count them as "scene musicians". Or not. So, what?

in my opinion, if you release your music for the demoscene, you're a scene musician. if not, you're not. if you used to, you might be called an ex-scene musician, but you probably wouldn't want that, because you now have a life.

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Well, I told before about experience, inspiration, motivation, purposes, etc. The base. The Culture, understand? You are European people, aren't you? Culture, subculture. Why need I explain the meaning of this word to you?

that's some good shit right there. keep smoking.
added on the 2006-11-07 05:52:26 by reed reed
kmuland:

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I remember that people are always worried about people that steal their trackered patterns.. Maybe they are releasing Mp3 stuff for avoid these motherfuckers rip their work..

i really, really don't think that's why people release mp3 stuff. i also really, really don't think people were ever worried about people stealing their patterns. people were mildly worried about people stealing their samples, but you'd get a truckload of fuckings if you did that, so you didn't.

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Same guy get a tracker…. Load a module .. And instantly he can check numbers and notes making the music!!! With some effort.. That guy will learn many thigns about music.. And why not.. This guy thanks to these trackered works will be come a tracker successor or our current active legends.

being a "tracker legend" is worth jack shit. plus, he will most probably learn the basic things about music, and many things about geeking around with tracker commands and stuff, which (as i mentioned in the previous rant) is totally irrelevant. it's not like those legends of yours learned all they know about music by tracking. they just adapted the tracker as a tool for what they already knew. dizzy had both classical and jazz piano education, he used to play the cello, he used to study music theory as a kid, etc.

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I always though on scene as a way for collaborate, learn from other guys and have fun… and not a competition where all is a secret, all is a hidden tech, a forbiden knowledge…

that's funny, i always thought of scene as a way to compete. i learnt tracking by looking at people's modules, i learnt making music by listening to music. didn't really need a teacher as such. then again, i used to play the violin from when i was 6 until around 15, during which i studied music theory as well, so i suppose that's helped. i also have active absolute pitch, which i suppose is an advantage as well. so much for the introspection :)

i'm not going to comment on the article of yours, as a bottom line everyone should just use what they feel like, and accept it if others want to (ab)use something else.
added on the 2006-11-07 06:09:31 by reed reed
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so, reed, ur message upstairs about has sense, but it's unclear, who u are replying to.


as if the thread was not entitled "a reply to manwe" ...
Hmm. What reed and dalezy said. It's really oh so fun when you send someone a piece of sound in mp3/ogg/whateverstreaming that you put some love into and they go "HAHA THIS KIND OF MUSIC CAN EASILY BE DONE IN 4 CHANNELS LOL AMIGA RULEZ".

@chock: You Sir fail to make any sense at all.
added on the 2006-11-07 08:59:50 by ogge_ ogge_
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so, reed, ur message upstairs about has sense, but it's unclear, who u are replying to.

manwe.

very clever.
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let me repeat what i said in the original reply. hell, i'll even make it bold:

i'm not saying tracker music is stupid. i'm saying it's stupid to appreciate musicians only if they do tracker music.


if it's not obvious -- manwe wasn't acting that way. neither do i. _it wasn't about appreciation at all._ i don't see why there was ur answer. if u want to discuss some existential topics like what scenemusic is - yeah, cmon. but it has nothing to do with narrow minded attitude or like that cliches u tried to bring in ur first message in this topic.
added on the 2006-11-07 09:20:55 by ton ton
To me, it's the end results that count. If I like what I hear, I like what I hear. Period. Sure, I, too, are can be impressed by tracked music, but I can ALSO be impressed by music created on sequencers, etc.

In the scene, as in life, you'll gain more respect when you've overcome boundaries that other people failed to overcome. Simply put, it makes you better than the other - which is part of the human nature. But I fail to see why sceners only see limitations in trackers and not in the other tools a musician can utilize today.

The persons saying "Everyone can make good music with modern tools" can go suck my pink lollypop, because you have no idea of what you're talking about!
Surprise! It STILL takes talent and skills to create a catchy melody, perhaps now more than ever, because these days it's easy to get consumed with "getting the right sound" instead of creating a special and nice melody.

So no one (I repeat: NO ONE) can convince me that it's better to use trackers simply because it's harder to make music with them - Limitations also exist for musicians using modern tools (no, I am NOT putting Renoise or other up-to-date trackers down, but by "modern tools" I mean "other tools than trackers", because most people don't use trackers these days).
It's just not 3 or 4 channels, that are the limits.
It's more like "How do I create this and that sound?" and "How can I set my music apart the music of others" and stuff like that.

True, we have lost the limitation of 3 or 4 channels, but what's so wrong in making life a little easier for musicians? Would you also claim that a coder is cooler if he debugged his own code instead of using a debugger? Personally, I'd say he's stupid, because he spends a lot of (wasted) time that could have been used for creating better effects, etc.

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i'm not going to comment on the article of yours, as a bottom line everyone should just use what they feel like, and accept it if others want to (ab)use something else.


I think Reed puts it very right here. Just accept the fact that people use different tools and be happy with that?

Seriously, guys - I was going to create a giant reply (not quite sure if I managed to avoid that, hehe), but realised there's no point. Some people will always think that those who set boundaries and no-break rules for themselves are cooler than people who prefer to work without such limitations ("Yeah, kill the beast with a knife instead of the BFG9000!"), whilst others think that's just plain stupid ("Sorry, you died. Game over!").
Another fact is, as Dr. Doom put it, that we would never have heard certain C64 sounds if there had been no rules to bend, no limits to break. So we should just be happy that people explore boundaries and try to work around them - that is how we learn and grow.

Also, I'm pretty sure that most musicians that have used trackers will say they DID learn something and that it DID help them become better musicians - I, for one, still use certain techniques that I picked up while tracking, so I'm sooo not on the same page a Groo here. I think my tracking days were well-spent and NOT a waste of time. If nothing else, it DID get me onvolved in the scene, which I am very happy about and it DID allow me to interact with other talented individuals (not only musicians), so it was absolutely not a waste of time for me.

But now I have moved on (and are learning to use new tools, thus picking up more skills) and I can only laugh at the people who think I shouldn't have....

...

Bah, this HAS become a big and messy thread - don't care to read it once again and scan for more errors and strange conclusions - posting now...
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It's really oh so fun when you send someone a piece of sound in mp3/ogg/whateverstreaming that you put some love into and they go "HAHA THIS KIND OF MUSIC CAN EASILY BE DONE IN 4 CHANNELS LOL AMIGA RULEZ".


Haha, Ogge. Did you ever get THAT reaction?

Hehe, well - I never did. But it could be interesting to see if people actually COULD recreate, say, one of my tracks using 4 channels on Amiga - and yes, I want it to sound exactly as good or even better- otherwise, don't bother.

Hey, THAT's a challenge for you 4-channel freaks out there - COME ON!!!
ok I deleted my article.. cause seems that will hurt many people.

Everyone have his own idea about what is the scene.. what is scenemusic, what is best way for make music.. so every argument and every choice can be valid..

... live and let die...

added on the 2006-11-07 09:58:23 by kmuland kmuland
Nutman:

Sure, just reduce the quality to 8bit 16KHz, chop it up into 64k sections, and put them one after the other in protracker ;-)
added on the 2006-11-07 10:04:40 by xeron xeron
xeron: Mwahaha....so much for talent....

wow.. what a great big argument this turned into. lovely :)

.x
added on the 2006-11-07 10:10:07 by xrs xrs
Ok, Reed, I am a peaceful man, always trying to look from the other point of view, as well. Now I see, I should fix a bit my original message. I said "only tracker music"? Well, it's not a 100% correct. I want to add "...and music for demos" - that should be right.
In the early days all demo soundtracks where tracked. When the new music tools came, culture and the people still stay the same (more or less). Note, it has no affect on graphics artists at all, it has only a slight affect on coders. So, you're right: independent of what music tool you use, if you still in demomakers team, you are a scener. That's why I wish to fix my first message.

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in my honest opinion, you really don't need a tracker background to do scene music for today's scene

You? May be. Me? May be. But we already has a tracker background. I told it before - it changed us. All that "what if we has no...", all that "ifs" are a pure bullshit, it has no weight at all, it can't be used as a proof, it's simply historical contradiction. Again, the selfishness talking inside you. You can release a scene music with modern tool? Very Well. Now, point to a good scene musician who never saw a tracker. If you will find more then one, please, count them all and compare the number with those musicians who where cool trackers. No any "ifs", just compare the facts.
But try to understand me right. Again, I did not said "trackers roxx, mp3 suxx", you know (it was repeated ten times already, hope, it's clear now). I just say "we have a culture, we act according this culture, trackers where the huge part of scene culture, which made the influence on modern scene as well". That's it. Just history. No "ifs".

It's pity for me, that the word "Culture" confuse you. I think, it's not a correct when somebody told "it's a scene prod because I release it on the scene", it sounds like "I am a Law". No, really, look from this angle.
added on the 2006-11-07 10:30:57 by Manwe Manwe
I wish the prod where this conversation started would get this much comments :)
added on the 2006-11-07 10:38:49 by Serpent Serpent
For me tracker music gives u the oppurtinity to use alot of techniques to create your own unique sound that u will have a hard time to do with sequencers. Sequencer dudes also known as mp3/ogg dickheads DO NOT use the oppurtinity to create their own identity mostly. They conform to a general sound that the society has defined, a political correct sound for the masses.

Nowadays demo music is generally very boring compared to what the tracker music for the demos in the 90`s was. There is a few exceptions, but then people complain about the soundquality for some instruments or that some instruments didnt fit into the soundtrack.

There is no melody or moodchanges in todays demo music. It`s the same sound being repeated so much that you have to puke out the shit instead of shitting it out.
added on the 2006-11-07 11:13:49 by Zplex Zplex
aphex twin has access to all equipment that he wants, and still produce horrible fucking trash. So the lesson here must be that it is the composer and talent or lack thereof that makes the music good or bad, not whatever tool was used to create it.

ZPLEX. What a load of trash! How is tracking going to give you any more of a unique sound when trackers are pretty much limited to the same soundsources as everyone else - the filters and what not.
added on the 2006-11-07 11:21:33 by NoahR NoahR
LOL Zplex :)
added on the 2006-11-07 11:21:47 by kb_ kb_
zplex AMIGA? AMIGA? AMIGA! LOL? AAAAAMIGA???
added on the 2006-11-07 11:24:13 by uns3en_ uns3en_
btw. zplex: fuck you .. crawl back to your oldschool cave.
added on the 2006-11-07 11:24:51 by uns3en_ uns3en_

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