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a reply to manwe

category: general [glöplog]
Though manwe didn't really say that ..
added on the 2006-11-06 12:21:18 by _-_-__ _-_-__
This is all really fucking futile..
added on the 2006-11-06 12:26:14 by okkie okkie
defbase: Read again what I've written. Traditions have their place, and I can appreciate a 64k intro as well as tracked music. Both are cool in their respective ways.

Still you confuse a few things here. For example the 64k limit for intros is a self-chosen arbitrary limitation with no other reason than "because we can" (you can of course draw a historic connection to the onefiler demos on the C64 if you want, but that's not really the reason). Which is cool, and (hopefully) nobody who's into 64ks is against several MB big demos.

Tracking on the other hand is something that transitioned from a real, physical limitation (Paula and the search for a replay format that takes as little CPU as possible) almost directly into the 21st century - without any reason whatsoever. Having just a few mono sampler channels without any processing or DSP effects just doesn't cut it anymore when we can do so much more nowadays. So why do it? "Because we can"? Yeah, of course! BUT: this isn't the _only_ way.

By your definition of "scene attitude" there'd be an ongoing war between the scene-spirit-laden makers of 4k and 64k intros and the spiritless n00bs who dare doing 32MB demos instead.
added on the 2006-11-06 12:26:48 by kb_ kb_
hm, smash put it faster, shorter and better. Perhaps sleep would have helped last night :|
added on the 2006-11-06 12:28:16 by kb_ kb_
Imo demoscene is not a matter of technology but a matter of spirit. Like art in a more accessible way.

One just need to proclaim being a scener and enter any compo at a party to become one for real. What counts is that he does this with a challenging spirit and freedom of further download and use.

Any music technique can feat a particular demo, it's just a matter of skills.

(I just agree that I've heard very very few demoscener's sung music that didn't plain suck as hell. So, trying to sing may not be a good idea though.)
added on the 2006-11-06 12:37:47 by doh doh
but people don't go around claiming that a 64k is better than a tv advert by psyop because one of them is a 64k and one of them is rendered, do they?

And by extension, all demos and 64ks suck ass because they're not pre-rendered animations!

smash put it faster, shorter and better

For some obscure reason I imagine this being said by a vocoder on a certain Daft Punk track.
added on the 2006-11-06 12:39:59 by Shifter Shifter
Manwe is the same kinda guy that argues with you that 'There hasn't been any good music released since Led Zep man!!!'
added on the 2006-11-06 12:43:13 by okkie okkie
I use Renoise myself and I don't see how it applies here. Ok, you enter notes and pattern sequences in it as if it were a tracker, so yes, essentially it is a tracker. That's just as far as any feasible comparison with FT2 or IT (not to mention Protracker etc.) will go. Just having VST support makes it a whole other thing already.
added on the 2006-11-06 12:55:10 by jobe jobe
I agree with Manwe. Nowadays the scenemusicians makes the exactly same music as the real world musicians. The creativity is gone, everything is the same. Tracker dudes keeps the demoscene music scene alive with their creative thinking, mp3 dudes could just get out of the scene, they dont add any spice to the scene, better move to the real music scene and earn a few bucks if people are willing to pay for the crap you already have heard a 1000 times before.

Thats my point of view :)
added on the 2006-11-06 12:59:33 by Zplex Zplex
"less restricted to a handful of tracker friendly music genres => less creativity"

Yes, that, uh, makes, uh, sense. Yeah. Right. Why haven't I thought of that before.
added on the 2006-11-06 13:03:11 by kb_ kb_
Zplex, for each musician that actually drives tracker music forwards that you name, I will name two creative and original scene musicians who don't use trackers.
added on the 2006-11-06 13:03:12 by jobe jobe
The creativity is gone, everything is the same

do you actually even listen to music? Like, at all?
added on the 2006-11-06 13:06:36 by okkie okkie
Hey I just received a vinyl in my mailbox!
added on the 2006-11-06 13:09:33 by _-_-__ _-_-__
smash/kb, maybe I didn't write clearly, I guess. I wasn't talking about the original argument (I agree with reed on that anyway), I was specifically focused on kb's post about doing things because of tradition.

kb, maybe I just misunderstood what you said. It's not really a question of clinging to something and saying it's the only way to do things - that's just dumb - but you have to acknowledge the entire scene is built on tradition. The way I read your post was that you thought traditions have their place but are ultimately pointless.

Traditions build up for a reason and are followed for a reason, it sounded like you were dismissing them all as "just for the fuck of it". Taht's what I was disagreeing with... My mistake.
added on the 2006-11-06 13:24:10 by defbase defbase
huhu, it's not like the scene musician back in the days where any better in originality.. just look how much got borrowed from the laserdance/italo genre back in the days...
added on the 2006-11-06 13:25:20 by bzz bzz
We tend to call traditions certain behaviours only once we forgot their real reasons, their real motivations. And those behaviours then become only justified because we once did find a justification.

To be a scener is to adopt a certain attitude towards creation, not to do things in a certain way because that's how they were done before.
added on the 2006-11-06 13:29:59 by _-_-__ _-_-__
To be a scener is also to not forget your heritage. It's just as important to grow and develop as it is to remember and respect what has gone before.
added on the 2006-11-06 13:37:13 by defbase defbase
and some never develop and just do it the "oldskool" way, but with opengl/d3d...
added on the 2006-11-06 13:49:00 by bzz bzz
... and half as fast. :)
added on the 2006-11-06 13:49:49 by kb_ kb_
Im agree about using MP3 for release “LIVE” music with live instruments + voice involved.. Yes.. Im agree.. Im dont asking everyone to use samples… but what about electronic/sampled based music? What about people that want to learn to make that music today? On 90´s years when many of us started on trackers we didnt have musical knowledge and the only way for learn something was sit on front pattterns and read these letters and numbers like an open maths book ;-)

OK today I can load a MP3 and enjoy the music.. get ideas, But nothing more.. I can learn about how to program that rythm? I can check the score and see what chord progressions u used? What trick are you using on your samples for get that amazing sound?

I remember that people are always worried about people that steal their trackered patterns.. Maybe they are releasing Mp3 stuff for avoid these motherfuckers rip their work.. Anyway beyond these stupids guys.. What about the new people that start to enter onto the scene and want to become musicians and learn from Scene music masters?.
OK lets imagine a newbie download SX3/SONAR/REASON/NUENDO/CAKEWALK/ on P2P and load there a MP3. What he can learn about music? The only solution for him is join onto a music school.

OK now .. Same guy get a tracker…. Load a module .. And instantly he can check numbers and notes making the music!!! With some effort.. That guy will learn many thigns about music.. And why not.. This guy thanks to these trackered works will be come a tracker successor or our current active legends.

OK and now someone will say… “Hey what happend: all scene musician have to become teachers?”
Well dont think about everybody being teachers for newbies.. But is not good learn from each others? Learn from other scene guys for improve your tech? I always though on scene as a way for collaborate, learn from other guys and have fun… and not a competition where all is a secret, all is a hidden tech, a forbiden knowledge…

Good works xerxes… congrats.. And Manwe, Reed I hope you getting friends again.. I love your music and respect your ways of make music. Both are great scene music makers.

Finally(offtopic) an article I wrote about "technologie and music" for HUGI but I was affraid to release. Its good time for show it now.
Today you can taste many profesional tools on your room. Most of them never imagined to be purchased cause today you "Try before buy".. but anyway beyond the Warez/No warez thread and the moral issues.. Do you feel "free" using these new ways of compose music? do you think that you are "free" cause you have all kind of virtual effects and synths, or they are just only complicating the music creation process? (or you dont stop making music each time you get cracks on sounds and you need to raise the ASIO latency).

Its your music OK cause that L3 Waves Maximixer plugin is overcompressing your mix to -0.3dB level and sounds soo punchy (like commercial stuff), or really you have composed a nice track?. Its bettter the music since you loaded some loops and added many VSTs over it.. rather than when you programmed each second of the drum beat? How much time do u spend moving the knobs of these virtual effects and machines and how much writting the song? The new Impulse Reverb plugin is sounding much better than the old tracker way of addind delayed lines, .. do you really need that so good reverb? Its maybe cause your need mask your music? Its cause you didnt work so much writting the song?.

Maybe you are also thinking that these modern tools need more external devices for control?... you are thinking about buy an external box for knobs? or maybe one of these dedicated and expensive sequencer interfaces were you have keys for each shortcut
added on the 2006-11-06 14:00:30 by kmuland kmuland
ok article was cutted.. read full here:

added on the 2006-11-06 14:03:41 by kmuland kmuland
buy v!agara online
added on the 2006-11-06 15:46:54 by kusma kusma
I guess it all comes to who decides what is the scene or not. Some seem to believe there are rules ;)

There are.
Rule #1: Break me.
An old friend of mine once told me that the more limited the tools you're given, the more creatively you'll use them.

I think he was right. A prominent feature of SID music, for example, is the use of fast arpeggio to give an impression of several notes playing on the same channel. If the SID had had 16 channels, surely very few people would have used this effect, and C64 music would have been entirely different. Better or worse, who's to say, but it wouldn't simply be the SID music we know today plus some extra quality. Something would be missing.

I think one would be entirely justified in saying streamed music is not simply an improvement on tracked music.
added on the 2006-11-06 19:04:18 by doomdoom doomdoom
I think it is very simple.
A demo with the music being 100% mp3 = good.
A demo with the graphics beeing 100% divx = bad.

Sounds logical to me.
added on the 2006-11-06 19:38:34 by chock chock


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