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Interesting movie on 9/11

category: general [glöplog]
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added on the 2006-04-24 10:08:14 by megamies megamies
I retract my previous post. What I originally watched was streamed on google and is obviously not the 2nd edition of this movie.
well, i just think religion is stupidity. ignorance is a bliss.
added on the 2006-04-25 07:37:36 by Hatikvah Hatikvah
Religion as a personal faith isn't that stupid I think. What's really stupid is ideologies, especially totalitarian ones such as islamism, which seek to create a better world through violence. And that's regardless of whether they are based on a religion or not. Nazism and communism worked that "kill all disbelievers" way too.
added on the 2006-04-25 13:14:11 by cruzer cruzer
yeah and so does democracism. totalitarian beliefs just seem to be part of our very nature.

The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11

Happy coincidenting!

That governments have permitted terrorist acts against their own people, and have even themselves been perpetrators in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we're talking about.

That intelligence agencies, financiers, terrorists and narco-criminals have a long history together is well established, but the Nugan Hand Bank, BCCI, Banco Ambrosiano, the P2 Lodge, the CIA/Mafia anti-Castro/Kennedy alliance, Iran/Contra and the rest were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that. That was then, this is now!

That Jonathan Bush’s Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a US-record $25 million must embarrass his nephew George, but it's still no justification for leaping to paranoid conclusions.

That George Bush's brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.

That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama’s brother Salem and reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just one of those things - one of those crazy things.

That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is.

That al Qaeda was active in the Balkan conflict, fighting on the same side as the US as recently as 1999, while the US protected its cells, is merely one of history's little aberrations.

The claims of Michael Springman, State Department veteran of the Jeddah visa bureau, that the CIA ran the office and issued visas to al Qaeda members so they could receive training in the United States, sound like the sour grapes of someone who was fired for making such wild accusations.

That one of George Bush's first acts as President, in January 2001, was to end the two-year deployment of attack submarines which were positioned within striking distance of al Qaeda's Afghanistan camps, even as the group's guilt for the Cole bombing was established, proves that a transition from one administration to the next is never an easy task.

That so many influential figures in and close to the Bush White House had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place at the right time.

That the company PTECH, founded by a Saudi financier placed on America’s Terrorist Watch List in October 2001, had access to the FAA’s entire computer system for two years before the 9/11 attack, means he must not have been such a threat after all.

That whistleblower Indira Singh was told to keep her mouth shut and forget what she learned when she took her concerns about PTECH to her employers and federal authorities, suggests she lacked the big picture. And that the Chief Auditor for JP Morgan Chase told Singh repeatedly, as she answered questions about who supplied her with what information, that "that person should be killed," suggests he should take an anger management seminar.

That on May 8, 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy which bore implications for America's military, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be someone who finds it hard to delegate.

That the standing order which covered the shooting down of hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001, taking discretion away from field commanders and placing it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, is simply poor planning and unfortunate timing. Fortunately the error has been corrected, as the order was rescinded shortly after 9/11.

That in the weeks before 9/11, FBI agent Colleen Rowley found her investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui so perversely thwarted that her colleagues joked that bin Laden had a mole at the FBI, proves the stress-relieving virtue of humour in the workplace.

That Dave Frasca of the FBI’s Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001 does appear on the surface odd, but undoubtedly there's a good reason for it, quite possibly classified.

That FBI informant Randy Glass, working an undercover sting, was told by Pakistani intelligence operatives that the World Trade Center towers were coming down, and that his repeated warnings which continued until weeks before the attacks, including the mention of planes used as weapons, were ignored by federal authorities, is simply one of the many "What Ifs" of that tragic day.

That over the summer of 2001 Washington received many urgent, senior-level warnings from foreign intelligence agencies and governments - including those of Germany, France, Great Britain, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Morocco, Afghanistan and others - of impending terror attacks using hijacked aircraft and did nothing, demonstrates the pressing need for a new Intelligence Czar.

That John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial aircraft in July 2001 on account of security considerations had nothing to do with warnings regarding September 11, because he said so to the 9/11 Commission.

That former lead counsel for the House David Schippers says he’d taken to John Ashcroft’s office specific warnings he’d learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack – even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets – and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened, proves nothing but David Schipper’s pathetic need for attention.

That Garth Nicolson received two warnings from contacts in the intelligence community and one from a North African head of state, which included specific site, date and source of the attacks, and passed the information to the Defense Department and the National Security Council to evidently no effect, clearly amounts to nothing, since virtually nobody has ever heard of him.

That in the months prior to September 11, self-described US intelligence operative Delmart Vreeland sought, from a Toronto jail cell, to get US and Canadian authorities to heed his warning of his accidental discovery of impending catastrophic attacks is worthless, since Vreeland was a dubious character, notwithstanding the fact that many of his claims have since been proven true.

That FBI Special Investigator Robert Wright claims that agents assigned to intelligence operations actually protect terrorists from investigation and prosecution, that the FBI shut down his probe into terrorist training camps, and that he was removed from a money-laundering case that had a direct link to terrorism, sounds like yet more sour grapes from a disgruntled employee.

That George Bush had plans to invade Afghanistan on his desk before 9/11 demonstrates only the value of being prepared.

The suggestion that securing a pipeline across Afghanistan figured into the White House’s calculations is as ludicrous as the assertion that oil played a part in determining war in Iraq.

That Afghanistan is once again the world’s principal heroin producer is an unfortunate reality, but to claim the CIA is still actively involved in the narcotics trade is to presume bad faith on the part of the agency.

Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan’s ISI, must not have authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta days before the attacks, and was not meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 9/11, because I didn’t read anything about him in the official report.

That Porter Goss met with Ahmed the morning of September 11 in his capacity as Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence has no bearing whatsoever upon his recent selection by the White House to head the Central Intelligence Agency.

That Goss's congressional seat encompasses the 9/11 hijackers' Florida base of operation, including their flight schools, is precisely the kind of meaningless factoid a conspiracy theorist would bring up.

It's true that George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 alone in the Oval Office, but what's wrong with old colleagues catching up? And it's true that George HW Bush and Shafig bin Laden, Osama's brother, spent the morning of September 11 together at a board meeting of the Carlyle Group, but the bin Ladens are a big family.

That FEMA arrived in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill, and had a triage centre ready to go that was larger and better equipped than the one that was lost in the collapse of WTC 7, was a lucky twist of fate.

Newsweek’s report that senior Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns is only newsworthy because of what happened the following morning.

That George Bush's telephone logs for September 11 do not exist should surprise no one, given the confusion of the day.

That Mohamed Atta attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell Air Force Base, that Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, that Saeed Alghamdi attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey merely shows it is a small world, after all.

That Lt Col Steve Butler, Vice Chancellor for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during Alghamdi's terms, was disciplined, removed from his post and threatened with court martial when he wrote "Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is...contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," is the least that should have happened for such disrespect shown his Commander in Chief.

That Mohammed Atta dressed like a Mafioso, had a stripper girlfriend, smuggled drugs, was already a licensed pilot when he entered the US, enjoyed pork chops, drank to excess and did cocaine, was closer to Europeans than Arabs in Florida, and included the names of defence contractors on his email list, proves how dangerous the radical fundamentalist Muslim can be.

That 43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of Atta’s flight school, just three weeks after Atta enrolled – the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida – was just bad luck. That Hilliard was not charged shows how specious the claims for conspiracy truly are.

That Hilliard’s plane had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash, that the plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal, and that 9/11 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seal’s attorney before Seal’s murder, shows nothing but the lengths to which conspiracists will go to draw sinister conclusions.

Reports of insider trading on 9/11 are false, because the SEC investigated and found only respectable investors who will remain nameless involved, and no terrorists, so the windfall profit-taking was merely, as ever, coincidental.

That heightened security for the World Trade Centre was lifted immediately prior to the attacks illustrates that it always happens when you least expect it.

That Hani Hanjour, the pilot of Flight 77, was so incompetent he could not fly a Cessna in August, but in September managed to fly a 767 at excessive speed into a spiraling, 270-degree descent and a level impact of the first floor of the Pentagon, on the only side that was virtually empty and had been hardened to withstand a terrorist attack, merely demonstrates that people can do almost anything once they set their minds to it.

That none of the flight data recorders were said to be recoverable even though they were located in the tail sections, and that until 9/11, no solid-state recorder in a catastrophic crash had been unrecoverable, shows how there's a first time for everything.

That Mohammed Atta left a uniform, a will, a Koran, his driver's license and a "how to fly planes" video in his rental car at the airport means he had other things on his mind.

The mention of Israelis with links to military-intelligence having been arrested on Sept 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, of an Israeli espionage ring surveiling DEA and defense installations and trailing the hijackers, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, does not deserve a response. That the stories also appeared in publications such as Ha'aretz and Forward is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Israeli media.

That multiple military wargames and simulations were underway the morning of 9/11 – one simulating the crash of a plane into a building; another, a live-fly simulation of multiple hijackings – and took many interceptors away from the eastern seaboard and confused field commanders as to which was a real hijacked aircraft and which was a hoax, was a bizarre coincidence, but no less a coincidence.

That the National Military Command Center ops director asked a rookie substitute to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept. 11 is nothing more than bad timing.

That a recording made Sept 11 of air traffic controllers’ describing what they had witnessed, was destroyed by an FAA official who crushed it in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, is something no doubt that overzealous official wishes he could undo.

That the FBI knew precisely which Florida flight schools to descend upon hours after the attacks should make every American feel safer knowing their federal agents are on the ball.

That a former flight school executive believes the hijackers were "double agents," and says about Atta and associates, "Early on I gleaned that these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose," and was visited by the FBI just four hours after the attacks to intimidate him into silence, proves he's an unreliable witness, for the simple reason there is no conspiracy.

That Jeb Bush was on board an aircraft that removed flight school records to Washington in the middle of the night on Sept 12th demonstrates how seriously the governor takes the issue of national security.

To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 9/11 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.

Le Figaro’s report in October 2001, known to have originated with French intelligence, that the CIA met Osama bin Laden in a Dubai hospital in July 2001, proves again the perfidy of the French.

That the tape in which bin Laden claims responsibility for the attacks was released by the State Department after having been found providentially by US forces in Afghanistan, and depicts a fattened Osama with a broader face and a flatter nose, proves Osama, and Osama alone, masterminded 9/11.

That at the battle of Tora Bora, where bin Laden was surrounded on three sides, Special Forces received no order to advance and capture him and were forced to stand and watch as two Russian-made helicopters flew into the area where bin Laden was believed hiding, loaded up passengers and returned to Pakistan, demonstrates how confusing the modern battlefield can be.

That upon returning to Fort Bragg from Tora Bora, the same Special Operations troops who had been stood down from capturing bin Laden, suffered a unusual spree of murder/suicides, is nothing more than a series of senseless tragedies.

Reports that bin Laden is currently receiving periodic dialysis treatment in a Pakistani medical hospital are simply too incredible to be true.

That the White House went on Cipro September 11 shows the foresightedness of America’s emergency response.

That the anthrax was mailed to perceived liberal media and the Democratic leadership demonstrates only the perversity of the terrorist psyche.

That the anthrax attacks appeared to silence opponents of the Patriot Act shows only that appearances can be deceiving.

That the Ames-strain anthrax was found to have originated at Fort Detrick, and was beyond the capability of all but a few labs to refine, underscores the importance of allowing the investigation to continue without the distraction of absurd conspiracy theories.

That Republican guru Grover Norquist has been found to have aided financiers and supporters of Islamic terror to gain access to the Bush White House, and is a founder of the Islamic Institute, which the Treasury Department believes to be a source of funding for al Qaeda, suggests Norquist is at worst, naive, and at best, needs a wider circle of friends.

That the Department of Justice consistently chooses to see accused 9/11 plotters go free rather than permit the courtroom testimony of al Qaeda leaders in American custody looks bad, but only because we don't have all the facts.

That the White House balked at any inquiry into the events of 9/11, then starved it of funds and stonewalled it, was unfortunate, but since the commission didn't find for conspiracy it's all a non issue anyway.

That the 9/11 commission's executive director and "gatekeeper," Philip Zelikow, was so closely involved in the events under investigation that he testified before the the commission as part of the inquiry, shows only an apparent conflict of interest.

That commission chair Thomas Kean is, like George Bush, a Texas oil executive who had business dealings with reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mafouz, suggests Texas is smaller than they say it is.

That co-chair Lee Hamilton has a history as a Bush family "fixer," including clearing Bush Sr of the claims arising from the 1980 "October Surprise", is of no concern, since only conspiracists believe there was such a thing as an October Surprise.

That FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds accuses the agency of intentionally fudging specific pre-9/11 warnings and harboring a foreign espionage ring in its translation department, and claims she witnessed evidence of the semi-official infrastructure of money-laundering and narcotics trade behind the attacks, is of no account, since John Ashcroft has gagged her with the rare invocation of "State Secrets Privilege," and retroactively classified her public testimony. For the sake of national security, let us speak no more of her.

That, when commenting on Edmond's case, Daniel Ellsberg remarked that Ashcroft could go to prison for his part in a cover-up, suggests Ellsberg is giving comfort to the terrorists, and could, if he doesn't wise up, find himself declared an enemy combatant.

I could go on. And on and on. But I trust you get the point. Which is simply this: there are no secrets, an American government would never accept civilian casualties for geostrategic gain, and conspiracies are for the weak-minded and gullible.

added on the 2006-04-25 23:55:07 by NoahR NoahR
hard to believe you ve lost your time typing this to convince us. congrats!

however, its always hard to know whats true...

i think in these cases the only ppl who should talk are the ones who know what they are talking about...

read this,
and click on the links at the bottom.

you state several of these points in your post.
if you cant counter the arguments of the link, you ve got to admit these points are, well, pointless.

thereafter i cannot be sure that the other things you say are credible. some of them prolly sure are. but be sure i wont bother to check.

have a nice day.
what points might that be, could you be more specific? oh you cant? because you dont really want to learn anything, as stated by yourself.

thereafter i cannot be sure that the other things you say are credible. some of them prolly sure are. but be sure i wont bother to check.

so what did you want me to do again, and why?
added on the 2006-04-26 05:37:03 by NoahR NoahR
well, speaking of wich, irecently fond the video from reopen9/11(wich is pretty good because it askes question rather than theorizing) in my mailbox. ( the rl one... )
if anyone is interested... contact me.
added on the 2006-04-26 05:37:16 by abductee abductee
to uncle-x:
yes, "the corporation" is realy good indeed. there will be a documentation documentation in the cinemas in the next couple of days called "WE FEED THE WORLD".
it is about misaligned food resources. for example the city of vienna tosses away every day the same amount of bread that is eaten in salzburg, aand so on. the bottom line is ( as i saw in an interview with one of the autohors) that the outbut of the food industry could feed 12 billion people per year. ( so the question is legitimate why thousands of people die from hunger everyday when we only have to feed half of them) and so on. i have seen only parts of it, but (as in the cooperation) they really show how fucked up this wohle thing is.
added on the 2006-04-26 05:49:05 by abductee abductee
whats your problem dude?

All these are prolly bullshit:

* 'A Boeing 757 could not have executed the attack maneuver'
* 'Eyewitnesses saw a small plane'
* 'The Pentagon attack left no aircraft debris'
* 'Aircraft crashes always leave large debris'
* 'The Pentagon attack left only a small impact hole'
* 'The wings of a 757 should have been visible outside the Pentagon'
* 'Engine parts from the Pentagon crash don't match a 757'
* 'Standing columns in the Petagon impact hole preclude the crash of a 757'
* 'The C-ring punch-out hole was made by a warhead'
* 'Flight-path obstacles can't be reconciled with the crash of a 757'
* 'Only A Small Plane or Missile Could Have Caused Pentagon Damage'
* 'The Pentagon Attack Plane was a Boeing 737 Instead of a Boeing 757'

just follow the link
I got a hold of a new (ok 2005) video edited by Jimmy Walter.
It contains a live-cut of a panel programme with the name:
"Confronting The Evidence - A Call To Re-open The 9/11 Investigation" held in NYC.

among others these people were guests on the panel or via live connection-interview:

Jenna Orkin (http://www.wtceo.org)

David R. Griffin (Author of "The New Pearl Harbour")

Paul Thompson (Author of "The Terror Timeline")

Karl Schwarz (Rep. Party [!] Author "One Way Ticket To Crawford, Texas")
- he tells _very_ interesting and disturbing facts ...

Webster Griffin Tarpley (http://www.tarpley.net)

Christopher Bollyn (http://www.americanfreepress.net)

Jeff King (http://www.plaquepuppy.ner)

David von Kleist (http://www.thepowerhour.com)

Barry Zwicker (reknown media critic for >30 years http://www.greatconspiracy.ca)

filename of the movie was like:
Jimmy Walter 9-11, Confronting the Evidence.avi
added on the 2006-04-26 11:06:24 by d0DgE d0DgE
helloworld. You are right, i went through them, several of them is in fact bullshit. and i have no idea why they would insist to them.
added on the 2006-04-26 11:23:07 by NoahR NoahR
Bullshit or not, but... what does it change?
added on the 2006-04-26 11:50:21 by Gargaj Gargaj
abductee: sounds interesting. gotta try to see that at some point. I'm wondering though why would we need to feed 12 billion people? I though close to 7 billion humans on this planet was way too much already :-/
added on the 2006-04-26 11:57:14 by uncle-x uncle-x
gargaj, no man is more of a failure than he who did nothing because he could only do a little. A lot of things is changing, but youre not hearing about it from Faux news thats for sure.

evena drunkard playboy like charlie sheen has smelled the coffee and started to air his concerns in public. Why has the smell hit him? because of information channels like the ones dodge posted, and conspiracy nuts like myself, who think doing a little is better than doing nothing while blaming those who does.
added on the 2006-04-26 12:09:15 by NoahR NoahR
yes and even if that little thing is spreading the word.

I mean _not_ conspiracy theories but only questions!
Therefore thanks to Tripper who woke me up taking a
closer look after having that issue laid ad acta some years ago.
added on the 2006-04-26 12:29:59 by d0DgE d0DgE
conspiracy theories is merely an ad hominem term these days.
added on the 2006-04-26 12:46:45 by NoahR NoahR
confronting the evidence is avaible at www.lonelantern.org in the movie archive. btw
added on the 2006-04-26 12:50:28 by NoahR NoahR
But beware of constructing nice stories and narratives out of facts. The thing about conspiracies is that they provide a simple framework, a background story to explain events. But the background story usually builds itself on unprovables and/or extraordinary constructions.

Two things to keep in mind: when trying to explain an event, the simplest explanation necessary and verifiable to explain the facts is to be privileged (because one can always find ever more complicated unprovable explanations) and another thing is to be weary of looking for things one already believes in.

added on the 2006-04-26 12:55:17 by _-_-__ _-_-__
But beware of constructing nice stories and narratives out of facts. The thing about conspiracies is that they provide a simple framework, a background story to explain events. But the background story usually builds itself on unprovables and/or extraordinary constructions.

while this is true 100%, it is altso true that circumstantial evidence is enough sometimes to put a human away for life. Circumstantial evidence is good enough, when you have enough of it avaible, and this shouldnt be discarded when searching, just like a court of law wouldnt discard something similar, just because not everything is smoking gun evidence.

added on the 2006-04-26 14:49:29 by NoahR NoahR
ok francis!

by admitting that you gain much more credibility.

btw i never said i believe theres nothing suspicious in all this.
but some ppl simply jump to the conclusions they like, and try to mislead other. and it seems thierry meyssan is a fucking stupid, moronic, idiotic, son of a bitch who almost makes me ashamed to be a french.
Here is an interesting article about the attacks from a different (non-conspiracy-nut) point of view:

Popular Mechanics: Debunking The 9/11 Myths

Also be sure to check out:


Of course many probably won't bother checking out these because they contradict what some people want to believe.
added on the 2006-04-28 11:51:41 by Sverker Sverker
according to page 85 FEMA examines WTC debris:

- what debris? All rubble has been cleared until spring 2002 violating laws to NOT remove evidence from a crime scene (by penalty of prison and fines)

- if the book points on the 2002 released "report" by FedarelEmergencyManagementAgency...erm...you all know what this "report" told the majority of U.S. citizens.
"[...] think fire caused the (symetrical freefall ;) ) collapse of WTC 7 [...]" yeah right

but to keep ojectivity I'll read it completely although I'm quite sure that it will not convince me.
added on the 2006-04-28 12:13:30 by d0DgE d0DgE
Found another interesting website that debunks a lot of the conspiracy theories:
added on the 2006-04-29 02:50:22 by cruzer cruzer
A question that arises in my mind after reading every 9/11 theory is that it all wants to prove that the US government is faking and is infact responsible for the events, but none really pinpoints WHY. Seriously. Did the Bush cabinet REALLY benefit from a terrorist attack on the US?

Also, there's the "dirty work" question - is the government really that stupid? The Loose Change video points out that the Bin Laden video is fake because the dude looks nothing like Bin Laden - only some parts after mentioning that Los Alamos has an advanced voice morphing technology available. So they can fake voices but not faces even though photorealistic rendering was available since quite a while now? (For comparison: the Final Fantasy movie was released in July 2001, circa half a year before that tape, which is visibly uber-shit quality.) Come on. Why would they do such discrepancy?

(Mind you, I'm not implying that the government is right, but if stuff doesn't make sense, something wasn't correctly reviewed.)
added on the 2006-04-29 18:09:34 by Gargaj Gargaj


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