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Demoscene Ethics

category: general [glöplog]
There isn't anything forced here. It is merely a suggestion.
Nothing is being taken away or demanded. (:
Folks are just saying "Want to help? Here's some concrete ways how."

I get the sense (although I can't speak for others) that many folks feel like they're forced to fit into what the majority expects, and this is structural.

For example, looking at thr gender example, you have a beard so you are "he" or breasts and you are "she", whatever your other anatomy or characteristics, when in fact going by that pronoun may feel to folks like living a lie, lying to themsleves and the people around them.
Claiming their own self-description is part of claiming the same respect they would show to others, as I understand it. (Folks with more direct experience, feel free to correct me.) Dismissing that is like saying the person in question isn't as worthy of respect, is less than because they don't fit the category

It isn't about being overly sensitive or bending over backwards. It's not about being afraid of getting things wrong and being yelled at.
It's about learning together and continuing to cultivate a scene that supports that.
I rather like the emphasis in the Pouet CoC about respect. Part of respect is empathy which allows us to understand what respect means to the other person. I learned this the hard way,? so I think I know. (:

Figuring this out isn't a smooth ride, and that's okay.
Hi there,

Since there will always be people complaining about things, I just wanted to balance this a bit and say that I find the document well structured with examples, detailed explanations, and suggestions on ways to act.

I see a lot of people here trying to take it in the most litteral sense as a definitive list of allowed sentences to use and so on. Of course not, it's not possible to have an exhaustive list and things go on a case by case basis. You can all use your good judgement to know when you're crossing the line, or if you don't, people around you should tell you.

I will not go into further details about issues I have met personally. I did not consider leaving the scene altogether but I will not attend larger parties anymore, because it was not a good experience for me last time I did (it's fine, it can't be enjoyable for everyone).

Anyway, it should be a non-issue to accept a document like this. It doesn't even enforce anything, and you're generally all nice and friendly. But it just takes one misbehaving person or a small minority to ruin the experience for a lot of people. I think we have clear evidence in this topic and elsewhere that problems do exist.. It's not everywhere and everyone in the scene, of course, but it's still something to keep in mind, and one more step in making the scene more welcoming and diverse.
Yesterday I swore to myself to not post again into this thread, but since a few people who are dear to me expressed their surprise about criticism of this document I want to explain a bit more, so that you can improve it if you want to. If you think it's perfect already and there is nothing and no right to criticise then just ignore my rambling here please.

I'm a product manager by profession so I think a lot about goals, use-cases and target groups of a product/feature/documentation etc. every day.

The goal of this document (correct me if I'm wrong) is to bring awareness and ultimately the goal is that we all treat each others more respectfully.

And here's the main issue I have with it, as perceived member of the target group:
You also need to respect your reader and I didn't feel respected. The same way as the authors want to be treated with respect and not with stereotypes, I as a reader want to be treated with respect and not with stereotypes. When reading it I felt like the document is treating it's readers as if they were two year olds who need to be told that puking is a no-no and how to say sorry. This way potential people of your target group will stop reading and ignore your document or block against it. Both is not in your interest.

In order to be successful you need to tailor your product/message/whatever to your target group. I may not be the target group but then you did a poor job at defining it and addressing it.

I read several times that people who have criticism should just ignore the document. This should not be your goal as well, because you want to reach as many people as possible. Somebody who ignores your product/publication is a "lost" person for your cause. Also this is not how it works. The work is not done with releasing your product / publishing your document. It often enough just starts right then.

I know it can hurt to see that the product/document/software/whatever you released is not used by the user the way you intended it or in this case not perceived as expected or not liked or ignored (which is the worst). You shouldn't block criticism by your target group but embrace it.
Because it will help you tailor your product to your audience in the best fitting way.

This is well meant advice, since I care about you and as an organizer really want everybody to feel welcome and have the best time possible.
Also sorry for my previous messages which were not as diplomatic and helpful as they could have been.
added on the 2021-01-03 08:00:25 by v3nom v3nom
Oh no, not here too.

I'm starting to get sick tired of this whole inclusivity and diversity movement.

You are a woman and you go to a sort of event where women were rare and you say people ask you who is your boyfriend? Well, fuck me, I'm going to tell you a secret: The same happens with men when they do "woman things". Men have exactly the same problems as you when they pursue careers in some types of dance, gimnastics, nursing, "long hair" hairdressing or being teachers for young kids. I'm talking "mothers actively refusing to bring their kids to school" level of discrimination, just in case he wants to stick his evil dick inside the kids anuses.

I've been following the demoscene since the early 90s. I've been to an insane number of scene events, both in my country and in foreign countries. I've NEVER, ever, witnessed anyone asking a women who is his fucking boyfriend just for being inside a party place. I've asked more than 50 people about this before writing this sentence. No one has ever known about a woman being asked that. 15 of these people were women. All of them, interestingly, wondered what was wrong with the question. These people is from 10 different countries, including yours, and their ages range from 23 to 59 years old.

If you are a woman, attend a party and someone asks you a question that for some reason makes you feel uncomfortable... Well, first of all, that is usually called "LIFE", sometimes people ask questions and we feel comfortable or not, and that doesn't mean they are being rude to you. There are many countries, what is seen as appropriate in some it is not in other. Do not take anything for granted, I tell you. I call that "diversity", but let me guess, that is not the type of diversity the people screaming for it want. If you already knew this simple fact and still someone asking you who's your partner in love makes you uncomfortable the problem is clearly yours. And second of all, if for decades very few girls participated in XXXXX activity and one day one girl goes to participate and boys there get surprised, who made this possible? The boys that went there, or the girls who DIDN'T want to go there? What do you think?

Let me guess, you are going to say the problem is with the boys because they didn't create an inviting environment for the girls.

Well, the problem is, no one is liable. It's called "life".

Boys and girls are different. If you put a bunch of boys or girls together the environment just reflects this. Just put more of the other and the environment changes. Men say exagerated things about women when women are not around and are perfectly good loving husbands, fathers, brothers and sons, because it's just a game. Just as women do. Just as trans people do. Just as everyone do.

Men usually find women shaped environments and activities as uninteresting as women find men's. And you see this clearly reflected in many things, for example girls attending parties with their boyfriends when young, but not attending anymore after 15 years of marriage, because they are just not interested. And nobody gets hurt, that's just life.

Then we can talk about people from other genders and sexual orientations.

Well, I have a surprise for you, 10 of the 50 people I asked ARE in one of these groups. Not fucking one said to have experienced any discrimination while in a party because of that.

All of the people I know attend a demoscene party to show their abilities, and / or being amazed with the abilities exhibited by the others, with a desire to impress and being inspired by the others. Who the fuck cares about where and what type of thing you like to orgasm to? I only care about what type of orgasm do you give to a fucking A·M·I·G·A.

All this inclusivity movement, to be honest, is a bunch of crap. I see only lies and half truths, and a desire to manipulate and get free money, stuff and advantage out of a perceived inclusion in an alleged and sometimes imaginary group. After many years of this shit going on, it's clear to me that this is only about immature people trying not to "man-woman-up" to the reality and harshness of life, and people without much self-worth claiming their problems are other's fault instead of trying to work hard and make their own path. Life not only can be a shit, it is usually going to be a shit if you do not work hard to solve the problems you find. It's your responsibility to make your life less shit. Nobody has to do it for you, they are already busy trying to live their lifes and their loved ones.

Stop pretending it's other people's fault. If you are unsatisfied with life, make whatever changes you need or assume IT IS YOUR FAULT. Do you want to get respected at demoscene events, work super hard and get to the top of the demoscene ranks. Nobody will care what you thing you are and what you think you like to fuck or not fuck. Do you want to get respected at doll collecting events? Work hard to save money and find rare dolls and nobody will care about what you think you are and what you think you like to fuck or not fuck. It's easy, but not easy, isn't it? You can moan what you want but the truth is nobody have to give a damn crap about you if you don't have anything worth of their attention. You get to that sometimes by chance, sometimes by genetics, but usually the only proven way is by HARD WORK.

Instead of trying to make demoscene, or anything else more inclusive, try to WORK HARD and be worth to be included yourself.

And to finish this, let me ask you a question. Based on what I have said, what is my gender and sexual orientation? Take a guess, what do you think? Do others like me? Do I get along at demoscene events?
Why don't you stand for yourself and have to create a fake account here? There is a problem with inclusiveness, and there is a problem with sexism in our society and since demoscene is part of it it's box excluded.
added on the 2021-01-03 09:14:44 by v3nom v3nom
it's *not excluded.
added on the 2021-01-03 09:20:00 by v3nom v3nom
v3nom: Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
This is why we need more voices involved.

I'll contact you outside of Pouet regarding this.

The same goes for anyone else with an interest and the willingess to approach the topic with thoughtfulness and an open mind--a listening, curious, learning and changeable mentality who will not dismiss the truths of experiences of groups whose truths are less heard and listened to, someone willing to center the needs of groups who are marginalized.

It is important to remember that the goal and focus will remain the same: ensuring that more people from groups marginalized by the societies we live in can feel that the scene is a place for them.

Empathy and respect are important.

Sometimes folks from marginalized groups adapt by trying to transform into the folks who step on them. This comes from a place of pain. Jamming oneself into a box other people made because we desperately want to fit in does damage to our selves and creates painful wounds that give rise to rage and denial. I know this personally.

Being inclusive does more than make the scene a better place. It creates the opportunity for sceners who try to fit in by amputating and attacking inconvenient parts of their selves to heal and become their healthier selves.
I know this from personal experience.

Long live the demoscene <3

What a wall ob utterly bullshit written by a faked account who doesnt have the balls to speak in its own name.

The last event you´ve been to must be in the early 2000s.
Females are far from beeing "rare".

same happens with men when they do "woman things".

Let me tell you a secret:
Scene might have been male dominated until the early 2000s, but that changed fast.
So scene is not a "boy thing" and you tbh dont know shit about the scene.

Do your research on Sabine^Alphaflight, Clary^Drifters, fashion^farbrausch, Faith^Neuro, just to name a few ...

If you talk about "girl/boy" things, you understand nothing but thatnk you, you are part of a bigger problem and the reason why ppl need to talk about "demoscene ethics".

whatever: STFU.
added on the 2021-01-03 09:35:12 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
metoikos: so the patronizing language in this manifesto is not open for public discussion?
added on the 2021-01-03 09:41:28 by havoc havoc
As noted in my post above, will be future versions of the document/project which can involve more voices.

The same goes for anyone else with an interest and the willingess to approach the topic with thoughtfulness and an open mind--a listening, curious, learning and changeable mentality who will not dismiss the truths of experiences of groups whose truths are less heard and listened to, someone willing to center the needs of groups who are marginalized.

Remember that this is a first approach, and there's a lot of cross-cultural communication going on, which is why many voices are needed.

The authorship of the project is intentionally diffuse, because it is not by or about any individual.
Hah. Ad hominem.
advise: use google before using latin phrases to sound educated....
added on the 2021-01-03 10:16:33 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
I created an account because I'm a lurker by definition. But it is interesting how dissenting is forbidden by people advocating for diversity. Diversity of everything but opinion. Diversity of everything but thinking. In my society we don't have a problem with "boys" and "girls" but I have to be careful not to use these words with you, or you dismiss whatever else I say. But you do say things that are seen as harsh in my society and you don't care. You can't have the cake and eat it.

I know much more than you about vaginas stepping inside party places because, for starters, I was born with one. And my last party was the Revision 2019, thanks.

Now try to understad what I wrote instead of resorting to ad hominem because you want to know who I am. Why do you need that?

Truth is the same with independence of who speaks it. Next time try harder.
So what was your first party then?
added on the 2021-01-03 10:21:29 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
metoikos: that means you don't want to discuss the language stuff in publc, correct?
added on the 2021-01-03 10:23:51 by havoc havoc
Wasn't it supposed to be "I’m curious. What was your intention when you said that?" not "STFU"?
added on the 2021-01-03 10:34:26 by Serpent Serpent
Gotta say, ProphetOfTruth is totally right about working hard for the things you want (or getting lucky). They are also right that "no one is liable". Why were there always more boys than girls at demoparties? The reasons are complex and there's no straight answer.
added on the 2021-01-03 12:04:41 by fizzer fizzer
One of the main reasons is girls don't usually like to do things that isolate them. And some boys do.
Tell me more about your wisdoms about what "girls" and "boys" do and don't. I can tell that to my daughter then. NOT
added on the 2021-01-03 12:41:04 by v3nom v3nom
dunno what other parties u go to, revision is packed with ppl of all genders.
added on the 2021-01-03 12:47:29 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
metoikos: that means you don't want to discuss the language stuff in publc, correct?

I think it is important to discuss that. Also you can read the "there will be future versions" as your feedback will be taken into account and hopefully the future version is better on that half. However, it would be also great if the feedback wasn't only given here but also through participating to the project it self. If you think the message is good but the language is bad and you have ideas on improving it, why not to do that?
added on the 2021-01-03 13:28:16 by rimina rimina
dunno what other parties u go to, revision is packed with ppl of all genders.

My point was about demoscene's origins. Surely you'll agree that the 90s demoscene was dominated by teenage boys? It's not so easy to fully explain why this was the case though. My point is that no-one can be truly held responsible for the demographic mix of the demoscene, so it's unfair to pin blame on anyone.
added on the 2021-01-03 13:37:37 by fizzer fizzer
dunno what other parties u go to, revision is packed with ppl of all genders.

Even if though the things are getting better we can't ignore the history. Revision is a great party and they have done a lot of work for making participating less intimidating for new comments and they have worked hard on making the welcoming environment for all. Ignoring the history ignores also this work and can make us think that things moved forward automatically. No, behind the change is lot of work and there has been shift in attitudes which is great.

Unfortunately revision isn't the scene. It is just one party. And even if things are great there it doesn't mean it is great everywhere. We still need to work for outreach and inclusivity.
added on the 2021-01-03 13:38:34 by rimina rimina
dunno what other parties u go to, revision is packed with ppl of all genders.

revision is U.S. only event that follows U.S. laws
only people who "allowed by U.S. laws" are there
people like me never ever be able to be part of U.S. event

and yes every "event" (even simple game jam) has strict rules for person location, ethnic group, gender, etc
participant expected to be "some template" and it should fit, people who do not fit into the template will not be listed in "news" about the event and their interview will never be published, even if they got to top place
added on the 2021-01-03 13:47:30 by Danilw Danilw
dunno what other parties u go to, revision is packed with ppl of all genders.

we don't have hard numbers on this, do we? i certainly agree that there are significantly more women around than used to be 20 years ago - but from my impression its still dominated by teenage boys like me :)
added on the 2021-01-03 13:51:40 by groepaz groepaz


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