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To Unity or Not to Unity

category: general [glöplog]
If PC demo compos are currently weak, wouldn't adding even stricter rules just make them even worse?
added on the 2020-04-28 10:00:20 by britelite britelite
Also, I heard that the 1k and 4k limits are quite popular among both people making and people watching the demos.
added on the 2020-04-28 10:01:02 by Preacher Preacher
Quote:
If PC demo compos are currently weak, wouldn't adding even stricter rules just make them even worse?


Fair point, and my comment was probably not clear: I didn't mean to suggest to introduce new/stricter rules for the pc demo compos. I learned that the rules are nowadays more open than I thought they are and that's fine with me.

I just think pc demo teams need to improve their skills (coding, modeling, artwork, etc.). if tools like unity/UE help with that, fine with me. However: Modeling is learned by modeling, coding is learned by coding - I am sceptical using unity/UE will help you here, but I would be glad to be proven wrong.
added on the 2020-04-28 10:27:30 by spike spike
it grates on me when you see people giving opinions on how competition rules must be changed, when those people are not heavily involved in productions for those competitions to this point. but anyway i think procedural graphics should be 64k not 4k, c64 should be banned from oldschool demo and only bbc micro allowed, and music compos should only play out using the left stereo channel. i think those rule changes would really reinvigorate the scene.
added on the 2020-04-28 10:47:06 by smash smash
I think these three things are now getting confused in this thread:

1. Limiting the computing power in PC compos ("fixed hardware specs"). This does not solve the problem of Unity unless the specs are way below modern specifications and none of the commercial modern engines runs on it. In that case, you're likely unable also to run a modern OS on it; so no modern APIs...

At the other end of spectrum, there already is various old-school compos, so scene is already doing this to some extent. However, maybe there's room for some "mid-school" PC compo, with ~ OpenGL1 (no shaders!) specs, who knows? There was engines for OpenGL1 also though.

2. Limiting the executable size. Scene is doing this already, but this is a good avenue for those who don't want to compete with commercial engines. But there's still large amount of engines/frameworks/tools coming from scene that are equally "unfair advantage". That said, 1k seems to be a pretty good compo for coders only who want to do crazy graphics with modern shaders, 4k for coder+musician, and 64k for bigger groups. In particular, I think 64k would be the natural compo for demogroups who want to make full length demos but do not want to compete with Unity. Many 64k writeups I read did not have too hard time fitting their assets in, some reported not even removing shader comments, so that should not too heavily limit the artists creativity while making sure that people linking those 100 megs of unused libraries stay the fuck out.

3. Banning or limiting the use of some specific frameworks. This thread is full of "what-ifs" that need to be answered, so I suspect it would read like some EU directive. Maybe someone should try drafting the compo rules along these lines and post them on pouet for commenting; we'll have an another long thread of comments for sure.

4. Requiring the full disclosure of the 3rd party frameworks / assets used in the compo notes. Again, this _should_ be the norm already, but since the Dying Stars drama, it would be a very good idea to write down some kind of rules what should be in the compo notes; some kind of "compo notes code of honor".
added on the 2020-04-28 10:47:57 by pestis pestis
I believe that no one is asking to ban anything.

I particularly have just a final question: if one buys some professional music and models, can one compete in the PC demos category, or will one be disqualified?

Thanks.
added on the 2020-04-28 11:05:12 by imerso imerso
Oops "these four things", as I remembered the last one only while typing the list.
added on the 2020-04-28 11:05:54 by pestis pestis
Quote:
if one buys some professional music and models, can one compete in the PC demos category, or will one be disqualified?

Depends on the licensing of said music and models. Also regarding music there are further limitations at certain demoparties, imposed by strict copyright societies.
added on the 2020-04-28 11:17:24 by britelite britelite
oh this thread is still going lol
added on the 2020-04-28 11:43:28 by okkie okkie
smash: i am aware that i have 0.001% of chances, but it will be a great honor just to compete against you, if i even manage that. =)

yeah, true.

also, what spike said.l
added on the 2020-04-28 11:51:48 by imerso imerso
If I hire ILM, have David Lynch as a Director and Hans Zimmerman compose the soundtrack, then rent all billboards in the city because I've Epic Games sponsor the whole thing as part of their unreal-engine marketing campaign, can i still release in the PC compo? plz answer until friday, thx!
added on the 2020-04-28 11:57:57 by LJ LJ
Being humble here does not work, does it?

In fact, buying pro music and models is the same thing as using Unity, Unreal or Notch, imo.
added on the 2020-04-28 12:00:06 by imerso imerso
Quote:
In fact, buying pro music and models is the same thing as using Unity, Unreal or Notch, imo.

So, according to you, is it ok for me to use pro music if it's provided to me free of charge?
added on the 2020-04-28 12:04:45 by britelite britelite
Quote:
If I hire ILM, have David Lynch as a Director and Hans Zimmerman compose the soundtrack, then rent all billboards in the city because I've Epic Games sponsor the whole thing as part of their unreal-engine marketing campaign, can i still release in the PC compo?

yes but only if the prod contains a DYCP scroller and a starfield
added on the 2020-04-28 12:14:52 by havoc havoc
In my book, PC demos would belong to a wild compo. But it doesn't affect me, I wouldn't complain.
Ideas/suggestions: Limiting the size of PC demos to e.g. one file of 16MiB.
Limit the number of PC compos to two: "Small" (everything smaller than 34567 bytes) and "big" (everything bigger).
We have had this concept of "big" and "small" entries in Amiga compos. There wasn't even an explicit size I think. Orgas decided.
Or why not use some kind of controlled, reduced Linux installation as the basis for PC demos? Then the exact set of system libraries can be controlled. There are so many possibilities.
added on the 2020-04-28 12:19:11 by bifat bifat
Quote:
oh

hey okkie!
Quote:
this

i'm sorry i have nothing useful to say
Quote:
thread

but i saw some other folks haplessly reply to every single point
Quote:
is

someone else made like i am doing now
Quote:
still

and although that is fucking boring and sad to read
Quote:
going

i figured i'd give it a try too
Quote:
lol

who knows, maybe because i write so much someone will start taking me seriously!
added on the 2020-04-28 12:19:30 by havoc havoc
also, BB Image
added on the 2020-04-28 12:22:08 by havoc havoc
Quote:
Quote:
oh

hey okkie!
Quote:
this

i'm sorry i have nothing useful to say
Quote:
thread

but i saw some other folks haplessly reply to every single point
Quote:
is

someone else made like i am doing now
Quote:
still

and although that is fucking boring and sad to read
Quote:
going

i figured i'd give it a try too
Quote:
lol

who knows, maybe because i write so much someone will start taking me seriously!


lol
added on the 2020-04-28 12:29:35 by okkie okkie
Quote:
In fact, buying pro music and models is the same thing as using Unity, Unreal or Notch, imo.

Why is using free "code assets" the same as using paid-for creative assets? Don't you mean using free music and models?
added on the 2020-04-28 12:33:22 by absence absence
You are underestimating too much, guys...

Being respectful to a guy who I recognize great experience making demos for so many years does not make my arguments invalid. I made some valid points that are being ignored.

I only wanted to show my respect, but you all that were silent took that as a trigger to bash me.

That is not quite the right way to expand to other countries.

I really believe that you all should be more receptive to new points of view.
added on the 2020-04-28 12:43:56 by imerso imerso
Quote:
I really believe that you all should be more receptive to new points of view.

Pot calling a kettle black, eh?
added on the 2020-04-28 12:49:55 by britelite britelite
Also showing my respect to the guy does not mean that I cannot bring some challenge to him.
added on the 2020-04-28 12:50:29 by imerso imerso
Quote:
That is not quite the right way to expand to other countries.

What do countries have to do with using Unity or not?
added on the 2020-04-28 12:52:42 by Gargaj Gargaj
then again, the guy you respect so much also uses free stock 2D/3D in his demos every once in a while btw! which according to you is pure heresy :P
i don't know. this is entertaining.

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