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How not to deal with other people and their art

category: general [glöplog]
it took us less than 5 minutes to come up with a better name for the compo ("S&MP3") yesterday.

Meh. Lacks the attitude of the old name. If anything it should be BDSMP3

Pray tell, what attitude is that?
added on the 2019-06-02 19:12:50 by Gargaj Gargaj
"once this stuff has stopped" how do you determine that
added on the 2019-06-02 19:13:24 by wayfinder wayfinder
didnt want to post more on this thread, it should probably be closed, what docd said pretty much sums it.

but regarding the political correctness thing there is this small remark that is annoying me: technically speaking s&mp3 or drill sergeamp3 compos would also be derogatory terms to the s&m or military communities, so why are people suggesting such renames? if the rename is for political correctness sake then it follows that it should be the blandest less possibly offensive name and not something that could still eventually irk someone.
added on the 2019-06-02 19:18:50 by psenough psenough
technically speaking s&mp3 or drill sergeamp3 compos would also be derogatory terms to the s&m or military communities

Completely besides the point, but why?
added on the 2019-06-02 19:29:58 by Gargaj Gargaj

I'd like the following, while being aware that this is not a view anyone has to share, and while also saying I absolutely don't like any kind of written-down CoC, when doing the right thing is provided by basic logic and decency anyway.

General part, which in the current story does involve other people than you:

- Controversies about demo scene content and people is discussed in demo scene fora only

- If outsider people (Twitch etc) try to start a shitstorm against sceners, don't support it, but tell people that the art has a local context that unless they join it themselves is none of their business

Personal part:

- People not calling me "asshole" on Twitter behind my back, and then 5 minutes later blaming me for my choice of words elsewhere. Unlike my use of "SFW" which was meant descriptive, "asshole" clearly is meant as an insult. I did not feel insulted, but this clearly is a double standard that's silly. To me intent matters more than words. I know for others it is the other way round. I find that silly, but have to live with it.

- You accept that you at any time may give me feedback, but if I tell you I've received enough of it and that it didn't change my position, you accept me to have a different position and stop nagging.

- You may or may not accept that "I'll end our friendship if you don't change your art" is a shitty thing to do after 20 years of friendship. If you wanna keep the friendship up you'll have to learn not do that again. Blackmailing is not a good tool when doing social interaction with a friend, and no matter how autistic I may be, even I know that.

- I'll leave you alone with your missionary work. If that what helps you through the day, then so be it. I'll not refrain to mention to you that I am looking back of 20 years of very fine art of great humor you have created, and that I miss the Wayfinder from back then. But I will accept you are a different personality right now.
added on the 2019-06-02 19:30:39 by scamp scamp
scamp, not gonna say horrible things about you, but i would like to point out that the heuristics of your actions paint a pretty bad image

1. slurs against minorities on stage at revision
2. railing against SJW
3. massive personal attacks
4. grandstanding about freedom

those things tend to be associated with a specific demographic of people, but i believe you when you say that you intend it to be satire and humor. us germans and especially you usa-cucked wessies have a hilariously crude sense of humor after all.

thus i'll not make the recommendation of stopping such things, but recommend widening your array of jokes to make clear that said specific demographic is not only not something you and UC align with, but in fact something you directly oppose.

maybe have a deutschlandflaggenverbrennungs-compo
added on the 2019-06-02 19:35:50 by Mithaldu Mithaldu
And here is a piece of art from the Wayfinder I loved:

BB Image

Yes, it is offensive to people if you ignore the context completely. "OMG, it contains Hitler!!1". Inside the context, it's simply a brilliant idea.
added on the 2019-06-02 19:36:58 by scamp scamp
gargaj: generalized stereotyping?!
added on the 2019-06-02 19:38:56 by psenough psenough
what was the context to the gif? being a dumb-ass ossi i don't seem to get the joke
added on the 2019-06-02 19:43:43 by Mithaldu Mithaldu
gargaj: generalized stereotyping?!

Okay fine, let's go there, so... What's stereotyping about connecting a competition where you get, supposedly, publicly humiliated on stage, to S&M, which, far as I understand, uses many of the same practices? Granted, it's not a 100% overlap, but S&M is a form of consensual control transfer, which is what I understand to be the point of the compo.

(The drill sargeant thing didn't sound as fun to me and didn't relate as closely.)
added on the 2019-06-02 19:45:23 by Gargaj Gargaj
Why this debate is pointless

Where do I start? Most of this thread is a back-and-fourth of utter nonsense. We'll begin at the start of the dumpster fir- I mean thread.

Since Revision 2019, where we had released three invitation demos to Underground Conference, with two of them winning their respective compos, me and others have been under repeated attack from "Social Justice Warriors" who'd like my and our art to be censored and suppressed.

I've been bullied, badmouthed and threatened. I am sick and tired of it, and will now fight back.

First off, I see nothing bad about the invitations. I watched all of them, and found nothing offensive. The so-called "Social Justice Warriors" (Who do not want to be called that) are not going to impact your demoparty or your art. Complaining is not censorship.

The blog post

I'm not going over the whole statement, as it is way too long for me to put in one post that is analyzing a whole thread. You can read it yourself if you so wish to, and make of it what you will.

The Internet is a world-wide thing, but the concept of using the least common denominator when it comes to morals and ethics is a direct path into destroying freedom of expression with a bulldozer. You suddenly may end up being judged by US moral standards.

Yes, the internet is worldwide, but everybody is different with their opinions. "Being judged by US moral standards" makes no sense whatsoever. What if I said that I'm being judged by "Germany moral standards"? The opinions of non-attendees will not affect your party.

So, LostHisWay after all these years and all the things we had done together now thought it would be OK to bully me like a random Internet person. He confronted me with the basic message: If you don‘t immediately apply my personal moral standards on what art is OK and which isn't, our friendship will end here and now. I did the mistake to give in to that. I actually did change some of the content, and told him that for next year‘s UC we could discuss renaming the ParalyMP3 compo.

For context, (if you have not yet read the post) he talks about someone who he refers to as "LostHisWay" who no longer agrees with the idea of the party and wants things to change. Scamp "gives in" to consider renaming the ParalyMP3 compo, and it wasn't enough for LostHisWay. Scamp then decides to not let him to the party, and LostHisWay decides to take the converstion to Twitter.

So, what happened now is: LostHisWay took our private conversation out of context to Twitter - where I don't have an account - , with a clear intend to create a shitstorm against my person and against UC. The idea was that if the demo scene does not object to my art as he does, that he needs to get outsiders involved so that the shit storm works. Effectively this turned out as a campaign to boycott UC.

How many times do I have to say this? The people complaining are not coming to the party, and will probably not convince attendees to not come if they enjoy staying at the party. That's as much of the post as I can take, let's move on to the actual thread. I have a lot of work to do.

The debate

Here are some positive things that people say. After all, the party itself is not a problem and is perfectly fine.

Hater's gonna hate Scamp.. Never surrender! Do ur thing!


I am really sorry to hear/read that and I can see how you are disappointed by someone who you considered a long time friend. That's quite sad, actually. However, be the better man and _don't_ fight back.


Everybody who knows scamp knows that he for sure is not a racist and for sure has nothing against any minorities.
And so do the other people in the scene which I know personally, that is part of why I love the scene.
So please everybody calm down, be nice to each other again, don't call the other names and let's all have a great party together in Bingen <3


Since you both dragged this out to the public: You know what I think ? You should man-hug it out. Nice and sincere !
Life's just too short to short for petty wars like these !

-bsp (again)

I will now give my opinions.

The whole party will not be ruined because of a few people who wouldn't go in the first place. This situation is not "ruining the demoscene", and it's just stirring up dramas. I feel bad for scamp, and he shouldn't listen to people who clearly have no intention of contributing anything. I need to work on my demo now.
added on the 2019-06-02 19:48:53 by Parallax Parallax
Okay, let me keep this as short as possible:

I think that none of the currently used platforms (twitter, IRC, pouet... "Internet") is the right platform to make things better in this situation right now.
I would like to recommend docd as a mediator (He kind of offered it between the lines). Maybe at least give it a try: A call with only the three of you. I don't really see how that could make things a lot worse (maybe I'm wrong about that, you wont know without trying).
added on the 2019-06-02 19:48:57 by las las
Inside the context, it's simply a brilliant idea.

It's also punching up; making fun of someone who is 1. in the context of widely acknowledged history, represents absolute evil and 2. was probably within the most powerful people at the time. Making fun of a person like that is a form of resistance.

Making fun of people suffering from paralysis is punching down, aiming at the powerless.
added on the 2019-06-02 19:49:46 by Gargaj Gargaj
people into s&m might not consider the onstage practice of the compo to be accurately representative of actual s&m experiences, from where they can conclude the compo name is mocking the s&m culture. which, technically is, a bunch of people on stage torturing each other for the lulz of a computer sub-culture, not really because they have a fetish of control, submission, bondage, etc.
added on the 2019-06-02 19:55:15 by psenough psenough

I'm part of this community for well over 25 years now.

At Revision during the job forum once on stage I said "Hi, I am scamp. You probably know who I am. And if you don't, you should probably kill yourself". Huge outrage on Twitch. Another time someone found it offensive that with my slide deck used for the job forum containing weird "think outside of the box to get it" kind of images also had a and image of a Fleshlight in it.

So yes, I do tend to generate controversies with my style of communication. I am well aware of the consequences.

What I did say during the prize giving at this Revision 2019 was: "And to the fat black jewish girl who ranted about the demo on twitter: Dear ryg of farbrausch, please go make a demo about it".

That was after ryg had called me an "asshole" on twitter (but also stating that we are friends - I want to be clear that I did not feel insulted, but see a double standard).

It later occurred to me that a lot of people these days may not actually know who ryg is and how he looks like. If you do, the context should be clear. It was a mistake to say that, as it wasn't clear to many. Spoiler alert: It's clear that this wasn't meant as an insult and could not hurt his feelings, and according to him didn't.

Yes, I do love satire, I do love zany over-the-top humor, since my birth I had a problem with accidentally hurting people I love due to my personal position on the autistic, and if I feel injustice, I speak up. I am the guy who stood up in the bus and on the school floor when someone was bullied and then destroyed the offenders with massive force, and I haven't changed since that. I am the guy who actually DOES something instead of fucking posting on twitter, believing that this would change the world.

Also, the biggest influence in my life has been and is Monty Python's Flying Circus, something that a lot of people in here potentially should have (another) look at when thinking about how humor can help change the world.

And I am long enough in the community for it for the relevant people to be more than clear on where I am standing politically, with my companies having been inclusive before that shitty word even existed, me having organized the very first national convention of the Pirate Party, and a couple of my employees just having taken part in the local city and regional state council elections representing the leftist party with huge support from most of us, including myself.

I don't want to make this a thread about my personality. Check https://www.simon-kissel.com if you really care.
added on the 2019-06-02 19:58:23 by scamp scamp
If you are black, you most likely will end up in jail.


Imprison all those f**ing emos! \o/
added on the 2019-06-02 20:01:33 by T$ T$
scamp & wayfinder: We all know that both of you are good guys. So, what about shaking hands and forget about it?
added on the 2019-06-02 20:04:05 by ham ham
i thought it was 20 years ago but i had grown up a little in the meantime

...and hinging a long term friendship on a disagreement over a silly name for a silly compo and dragging the whole thing to the snakepit that is Twitter really shows how you've grown XDD

what attitude is that?

If I may butcher a quote by R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz: To disect a joke is to kill it

BB Image
added on the 2019-06-02 20:08:43 by d0DgE d0DgE
Oh I'm sorry, I thought you had an actual point to make.
added on the 2019-06-02 20:12:46 by Gargaj Gargaj
Trying to make points in this thread ... bahahaha
added on the 2019-06-02 20:30:48 by d0DgE d0DgE
Just to post as a reference a relevant xkcd as it seems to align with what many agree here. Even if I need to note that I mostly don't agree with it's position, I think it's incomplete or doesn't look further at the consequences to society.

I get it that if you write something that is deemed offensive by the public, then you are to face the consequences and people have the right to be outraged at you. However the perception of what is offensive has expanded to the most trivial things, while at the same time an outrage culture has formed that are actively seeking to find fault in everyone in and out of social media and try to doxx them and fire them from their jobs. This is becoming big now and I can't state how many times I am disappointed people are losing their jobs because of something they wrote on twitter. Twitter is like brain farts, you wake up in the morning and write a stupid edgy joke. But people do it, and then companies because of PR, will enforce it and then talk about diversity and inclusion, but nobody will think how in some case at least it's illogical for someone to lose their job. It just goes on, people stop talking about it, many other people might have something to say but are afraid to talk for the same reasons. And when one discusses how some of these cases are illogical and people shouldn't lose their jobs, then someone else posts this xkcd comic thinking it

It might not be the case here of course. I think this started as a disagreement on the compo name, but then maybe escalated by doubling down on the very differing political/ethical views of whether and why should we keep the name or change it. I just hope it doesn't escalate further harming both of your personal lives or jobs (because that's what could happen if drama like that infused by culture wars language escapes to the mainstream through social media) and hasn't harmed the demoparty too much.

I'd like to also say, without taking sides, I do understand now how Wayfinder feels about the name, since he had a part to the original name, an information I didn't know before. There is a difference between to selectively outrage about problematic names, from actually concluding that "I came up with this years ago, but now I feel uncomfortable about it, so maybe we can change it?". It's hard for Scamp too, that feels like this is infringing on his creative right on the name, so I hope there is a resolution in this hard problem.

As a final irrelevant thought, I don't think the demoscene is in danger, since most of the communities that get infected by PC ideologues (whether you believe that's the case or just a conspiracy of some right leaning people) have to become mainstream first. And I don't see the demoscene becoming mainstream enough, except if it becomes some kind of digital art excluding the realtime graphics programming concept that is too technical to understand for most people.
added on the 2019-06-02 20:35:17 by Optimonk Optimonk
If you are black, you most likely will end up in jail.


Imprison all those f**ing emos! \o/

Tibor ist, wenn man trotzdem lacht <3
added on the 2019-06-02 20:49:46 by Sir Sir
thank you for writing down what you'd like.

i'l try and comment on each of your wishes and voice my own at the end.

- demoscene fora only: i get that twitter is not your turf, but at least i didn't explicitly exclude you from even reading what i wrote, like you did on (demoscene forum!) facebook. tell me if you feel like you couldn't respond to something i said, and i'll try to bring it somewhere you have an account, to discuss. but i'm not going to stop posting about things that matter to me on twitter, i do not share your "what happens in vegas" view. so while i can relate to your wish to bottle this whole thing up and keep it from people in my life to make yours easier, i have no interest in actively working toward that and find this demand unreasonable.

- i also do not subscribe to the notion that we should only criticize from the inside. i'm glad the issue was brought up, and as i said in our initial conversation, when your fly is down and someone tells you, you fix yourself and don't wait until someone you *like* tells you it's down. unless you like the way your open fly looks i guess, which appears to be the case here. if you want to ignore outsider perspectives (or assume that the opposite must be true since they are outsiders), that's your prerogative, but it's mine to listen. so i find this demand unreasonable.

- dude that asshole shoe was fucking MADE for you. you behave like an asshole i'm not gonna pretend you didn't. that rant onstage at revision against ryg was the thing that i first found egregious, and i stand by my choice of words, as i still feel it's a good short form description. but i can live with not using that word as a shortcut any more and calling out your harmful behavior more specifically instead. (after this paragraph, obviously). also, for your intent to matter, it has to be apparent and land as intended. if you get called out that perhaps didn't work.

- i will not stop defending myself against the stuff you write just because it annoys you. you see it as nagging, as if you had already removed the underlying reason to defend myself. this demand is completely unreasonable.

- the end of this friendship hurts. i am certain that there is not a way back into how it used to be. i thought at the time that you would see how important this was to me, and that that would perhaps give you pause or at convince you to at least try to view things from my position, kinda like friends do. kinda like *I* did. i tried to view things from your position and it felt so unethical that i got angry and disappointed, and very very sad. but apparently you felt like i was using this as a battering ram instead seeing it for what it was: me telling you you were pushing me away with your reaction to being rightfully called out. is it really blackmail to say "i don't want to be friends with someone whose world view i consider gleefully, deliberately harmful"? i don't think it is. you keep pointing to other things you've said and done that would cancel it out, but that's not the case. your companies are inclusive - great! does that buy you the right to be hurtful somewhere else? i don't think it does. perhaps if you had told me that you were only removing the refugee camp reference to placate me, and not because you understood why i wasn't comfortable with it, i would have quit the organizing team then and there, and that would have been better. but that's not how it went. you write "if you want to keep the friendship up you'll have to learn not to do that again." you're not in a position to make this (patronizing and ridiculous) demand. i don't want to keep up the friendship under the current circumstances.

- i'm no little angel. i have made, and do still make, jokes that sometimes hurt people (not that i think hitlermelon falls under that). but i am very content with how i've changed, in that when i am made aware of my problematic behavior, i am embarrassed at how i didn't meet my own standards of human decency as opposed to lashing out at whoever noticed, and i don't fly off into nothing-matters-superdefense mode as quickly any more. i am proud of how clearly i've been able to state my thoughts in this, and that i seem to have gotten it mostly right. i am still super unsure about so many things, but i've gained clarity in a few areas and while it's not something "happy" in the joyful sense, it's with a certain satisfaction that throughout this whole thing, i have not felt that pang of "i'm doing something i morally oppose" the way i did when i thought about running the compo.

i guess ultimately i appreciate that you've come out and acknowledged that you are fighting to hurt without consequence if you only meant it funny and not insulting.

as for how i would like this to continue:

- you remove references to me from sjw.html and apologize for treating me like dirt when i wouldn't do what you wanted. it doesn't have to be public, but it has to be sincere.
- that's it, we go our separate ways and i will try my best to not engage you unless absolutely necessary.
added on the 2019-06-02 21:03:43 by wayfinder wayfinder
added on the 2019-06-02 21:10:13 by imerso imerso
I do hope I'm the first to come up with "ScaMP3" for the compo name, pretty please? :)
added on the 2019-06-02 21:53:06 by Y0Gi Y0Gi


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