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Use of UE et cetera

category: general [glöplog]
Now, sceners use tools and engines that were never meant to be used for making demos

Do flash demos count?
added on the 2018-08-06 16:57:14 by dixan dixan
Well dixan, it's a good thing that OSDM (Oldschool Demomaker) prods aren't allowed here on pouet, although I'm positive you could generate pretty original content even with that tool! ;) There are some really cool flash demos out there, but it has been in decline for so long that I doubt it's of any interest to the demoscene nowadays.
added on the 2018-08-06 17:01:50 by SunSpire SunSpire
SO... A major difference of today and the past is: Today you don't need to know how to code to be able to make a demo. In the past you _had to know_ how to code (because there were no tools available, only Deluxe Paint and ScreamTracker were available, and you had to Install Turbo Assembler or Turbo Pascal from floppy disks! pun intended. The part of the fun was to learn how to code in sucky videomodes, understand other peoples sourcecode or learn all that shit on your own if you had no telephone line or swapper-friends). TOday lets f*** that and use Unity and UE everybody. We have to use NVIDIA drivers and update our laptops to the latest graphics drivers! Also we could just import all of our models into the demoeditor and not understand how things work underneat. Just like all the electronics we are surrounding us with in todays world. Like what happens inside your car, and so on..
added on the 2018-08-06 17:44:36 by rudi rudi
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added on the 2018-08-06 17:49:21 by visy visy
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added on the 2018-08-06 18:29:42 by yzi yzi
so, where can i get a fully cracker version of notch, did fairlight manage to crack it yet?

also, real men use punch cards to make demos, but as it's so fucking slow they've never gotten anything ready.
let's be happy about there being tools to use for demomaking, just make sure to mention the tools used somewhere.
added on the 2018-08-06 18:32:17 by nosfe nosfe
Lol, the demoscene just has to get used to the fact it’s changing into the machinimae scene from 2003. M

Sallgood imo.
added on the 2018-08-06 18:47:34 by okkie okkie
When someone uses Unreal, Tim Sweeney is generally not sat in the room developing for the demo

added on the 2018-08-06 18:54:15 by keops keops
When someone uses Unreal, Tim Sweeney is generally not sat in the room developing for the demo

lol busted
added on the 2018-08-06 18:57:35 by msqrt msqrt
and what would argue against it to have an "engine compo"? I agree that using engines doesn't make demo making trivial (for myself I would have no chance realizing a demo no matter what engine), it's just a different approach ..
added on the 2018-08-06 19:00:37 by Asato Asato
@rudi: there is no change in that regard, even in the old days, people had tools to create demos without coding a single line.
e.g. https://csdb.dk/release/?id=161082
@Yago: lol. you got me there.
added on the 2018-08-06 19:13:47 by rudi rudi

Virtually all of your PC demoscene heroes are using code, engines, tools that have been in some way used (and paid for) commercially at some point.
Reuse, tools, shortcuts to results are prevalent in virtually every corner of the scene (and the world). Libraries, stock content, samples, code stolen from shadertoy or elsewhere, some cool sound or 3d model generated easily with a plugin..
Following from the commercial issue (because often it's the pros who have the experience to take such shortcuts): it's up to the scene whether this is OK or not and the rules could change;

You are right that those people tend to be heroes, but personally, I don't buy this bullshit.

IMHO demoscene legends just cannot resist the feeling of being "on top" and they will do anything to satisfy their narcissistic needs (=winning the compo), even if what it takes is to copy the idea from vimeo, or "forget to mention" that they have used some 3rd party asset or code.

Then they find all excuses possible to justify why the rules should be changed today in a direction that is more convenient for them.

I tend to value productions that have 3rd/4th place in the compo; many times they are not as polished, but at least you can see a person spend his spare time right i.e. didn't waste too much time on "packaging".
added on the 2018-08-06 21:30:29 by tomkh tomkh
Jealousy much? You search for all excuses possible to justify why your prods are not at the top. Indeed, there must be a secret club of elite demosceners. The scheme and manipulate party rules to support their dominance. Everyone who is not part of the club is doomed to lose, because they cannot afford good enough "packaging".

Grow some balls for god's sake!
added on the 2018-08-06 21:45:13 by introspec introspec
how on earth are you wasting time if you make your production look better
added on the 2018-08-06 21:45:34 by msqrt msqrt
I am talking about the demo that was using all shortcuts possible (e.g. 3rd party assets and stolen code for effects) with a good packaging vs an honest man demo that is not packaged as good, but has some cool/interesting effects in it.

Of course extra packaging always helps, but I don't value it so much personally, that's all.
added on the 2018-08-06 21:50:16 by tomkh tomkh
also, real men use punch cards to make demos, but as it's so fucking slow they've never gotten anything ready.

Men and women; in the 60s it was used to get us into space :)
added on the 2018-08-06 22:14:10 by superplek superplek
So a honest man makes stuff that doesn't look as good, but takes more time and effort to do? That's not being honest, that's being dumb.
added on the 2018-08-06 22:35:27 by Preacher Preacher
Preacher: following your train of thought the whole demoscene is essentially dumb. If you compare demo to prerendered animations - the latter tend to look so much better and it takes less time to make them (if you want exactly the same quality, hint: you don't have to optimize your code).
added on the 2018-08-06 22:49:24 by tomkh tomkh
There's a point where you're trying to be so contrary that your argument stops making sense - that point was passed about 5 posts ago.
added on the 2018-08-06 23:11:43 by Gargaj Gargaj
tomkh: Yes. That's why demos are mostly a fun hobby. Like a lot of things that are really nice pastimes but essentially dumb if you look at them from a purely commercial or effectiveness POV.
added on the 2018-08-06 23:12:28 by kb_ kb_
Note: Completely personal opinion and not representing ASM/any demoparty.

This is going to be a bit rambly and maybe a bit ignorant too but honestly, if engines like these help people making stuff what is currently out then by all means continue using them and experiment.

Might be a stupid analogue but I like to think of this as existing trackers and playroutines vs. writing your own in-house music player. You might be able to get a ton more out of the chip by writing things manually & engineering things, great stuff but a good composing tool, while maybe forcing some similarities/limitations between songs does allow way quicker turn around and experimentation that can later be shuffled back to actual custom crafted routines or inspire those later. Let alone grab the interest of people who really can make kickass music and want to do it but don't have time to go knee deep. You still have a song to make in the end.
Maybe your in-house routine happens to be a really good "tracker", if it works then good for you. Expectations are probably quite high at this point :)

It's too early to tell what goes on for the long run but I feel like there has definitely been some interesting ideas and demos that have come out of these "engines" and I also think they help to inspire with what you can create later on and expand on the existing working design ideas / choices / experiments / demos.

Sort of like how designers like to pull mockups and later those get coded in to actual routines, something I've observed especially for older platforms.
I'm all for it if this allows for designer minded people to experiment more with these on their own.

Note that I definitely don't want to say that it's 100x easier to just use a premade engine but instead saying that maybe something cool can come out of this in the end that benefits both parties and I like to be optimistic here instead :)

BUT I do think that the framework/engine should get an extra mention on intra/slides.
Maybe a small reminder on the intra "If you used a commercial engine, be cool about it and give a note in Tools section" or a tickbox/dropdown to aid in this.
More if anything, I think the used tools in general should always be mentioned since that helps with giving credit & advertising packers and whatnot but also has the aspect of demonstrating what you can do with "man, pc, beer and an engine" which to me is all it should need.
added on the 2018-08-06 23:17:33 by oasiz oasiz
I couldn't hold ;)

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added on the 2018-08-06 23:57:55 by Optimus Optimus
last one

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added on the 2018-08-07 00:00:50 by Optimus Optimus
kb_: I'm sorry, but going down this train of thought everything is dumb except working in the industries that are essential to our survival (medicine, food, transport, real estate, etc...). Oh wait, that's actually true ;-)
added on the 2018-08-07 00:25:19 by tomkh tomkh


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