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RIP Nectarine... AGAIN!

category: general [glöplog]
i first discovered Nectarine after googling one of my own tunes (bit egotistical i know), all the tunes i did for demoparties are uploaded in multiple places without my explicit permission, but that seems to be what to expect if you release something at a party. If someone had ripped a tune from one of my games that would be a different matter i think..

Anyway Modaxx i hereby grant you permission to do remixes any of my tunes that you like, but only on the condition that you upload them to every demoscene music radio station you can find.
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Wew, if Arab had to deal with this much ego-tripping and denial on a regular basis, I can understand why he wanted to send Nectarine to palliative care.


Arab did not have to deal much with any sort of talk since that was effectively delegated to moderators. He himself was not a part of the core group of the social community (though he possibly slightly increased his presence during the last months), instead mostly running servers at the background and this may partly explain why he lost his motivation.
Back to the main topic – I feel that offering help when it’s needed would be a much better contribution.

All emotions aside, is there any way we can honestly contribute to ensure Necta keeps running (if and when it’s needed)? Because I’m ready to help if I’ll be helpful.

I really don’t want to see Necta gone. We’re all in this together, and if we run it into the ground we’ll all suffer from it. I don’t want to see it gone.
added on the 2018-06-20 11:39:28 by MyO MyO
Hey Modaxx, first of all sorry to see this silly argument at all. It's your music, your decision, and you have as much right to an opinion as everyone else here.

Second..

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Respect the decision of the site owner. If you want the site active again, create your own!? :) How about that ? :) To much work?


Who is the site owner here? The radio as a concept was created by Yes, the code the current version runs on is mostly written by me, and I was a co-admin until real life interfered and I slowly drifted away from it. The data and songs on the site is mostly added by the users over the last 10 years, with proper metainfo, links, votes, comments..

Arab has done a fantastic job keeping the site running, and haven't gotten nearly enough thanks for it, in a position like that you get to hear everything negative again and again, even if it's nicely worded (which it not always is) and only rarely do you hear people say "hey, you're doing a good job here". It creates a pressure it's hard to understand unless you've been there yourself. From what Gargaj writes, I'm sure he can relate.

Anyway, my point was, arab is the maintainer and the one keeping the lights on, he's a great guy and as I said done a fantastic job, and we all should thank him more for that. It's his servers it's running on and in that way he's the owner of the site.. But it's more complicated than that. The phenomenon Nectarine Demoscene Radio does not belong to any one person (and if it was that'd be Yes), it belongs to the community.

Arab is the caretaker - and you need to care for it to keep it running, responding to all the stuff going on - but looks like all the crap got to him. I think he want to continue being the caretaker, that he still cares, but that there's some things that needs to be cleared out and untangled. Currently I'm waiting to see what happens.

Alright, sorry for the long text. That's all I got to say at the moment.
added on the 2018-06-20 12:58:20 by Terrasque Terrasque
^
added on the 2018-06-20 13:04:49 by MyO MyO
excuse me for asking but what happened to all those other necta members? https://demozoo.org/groups/6280/
added on the 2018-06-20 13:11:38 by the_Ye-Ti the_Ye-Ti
^
Nectarine as a sort of vague scenegroup (like some people wanted to conceive it) did not have anything to do with radio's maintenance and running (and probably not much to do with arab even though he is listed there). They were kind of two separate things.
I'm sorry guys.

I didn't know about the nectarine offline show before since it got discussed over 5 sites on pouet.
So I can't be the reason for "pulling the plug" as some are conclude. I wasn't an active user on that site. I just forgot about it :)

Second. I just respected his "Don't mail me!" - So i used pouet as a mouthpiece as ALL doing.
(OK we forgot about the fact that ALL is not daXX, who is'nt authorized to do what ALL are doing!?)

For your Radio/Site/WhateveritwasWebsite - Sorry for that you have 1 Station lost. Even if Arab? (i dont know him) did a good job - or bad job - it doesnt care.

When people stop what they did for YEARS for FREE, there are always some people who think they have a RIGHT to get it back.
- And that's simply wrong guys. -
added on the 2018-06-20 15:48:17 by d4XX d4XX
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When people stop what they did for YEARS for FREE, there are always some people who think they have a RIGHT to get it back.
- And that's simply wrong guys. -


So, you think it is asking too much to publish the database of a community-driven collective effort of thousands of users for others to continue? You think that is selfish? :)

The current admin didn't invent Nectarine, nor did he code most of it. He just happened to get his hands on it and somehow - after a while - was the only one who could do administrative changes to it. This he used relentlessly against the will of the community by changing things which baffled us more than once, and this behaviour now culminated in a final act of demonstrative shutdown with the finger in between the lines (the second paragraph was added later).

It's not like willing and able people were not ready to take over the whole thing and help it continue, if the current admin is bored with it, 'frustrated by the degree of respect that he earned from the community' (is something which I hear for the first time now), or thinks that Nectarine should just die, which it won't.
added on the 2018-06-20 16:25:23 by Shinobi Shinobi
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I'm slowly starting to understand why Arab pulled the plug.


Note that Oldchap has not been part of Nectarine community until very recently (like few months ...or possibly he made a comeback but his first stay was like over a decade ago or so and thus it is not relevant here). And during his recent stay there I actually do not even remember him being pointy or anything there.


I was thinking about dealing with musicians who want things removed, or just changing their mind back and forth, and perhaps the worst kind, those who somehow matured and are too serious to appreciate their own youth.

Nectarine is partly about preservation, deleting songs seems like a bad idea.
added on the 2018-06-20 17:39:35 by modrobert modrobert
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So, you think it is asking too much to publish the database of a community-driven collective effort of thousands of users for others to continue? You think that is selfish? :)


When you have a facebook page and zuckerberg close the service do you think you have rights to get a copy of the database just because millions of users posted anything there?

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The current admin didn't invent Nectarine, nor did he code most of it.


Ahh OK. For that i wonder, where THE one is who invent it and coded it to restore it..?
added on the 2018-06-20 17:40:46 by d4XX d4XX
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Nectarine is partly about preservation, deleting songs seems like a bad idea.


The owner of music has always the rights to delete content. Preservation or not.
Music is not a property for everyone who has ears.
added on the 2018-06-20 17:44:27 by d4XX d4XX
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So, you think it is asking too much to publish the database of a community-driven collective effort of thousands of users for others to continue? You think that is selfish? :)


When you have a facebook page and zuckerberg close the service do you think you have rights to get a copy of the database just because millions of users posted anything there?


I don't use Facebook, and neither should you, btw. Comparing it to Nectarine is a little bit far fetched, as far as I know the users of Nectarine were not a product to sell to third parties.
Nice remixes you made, btw. I didn't quite get what you were so angry about that you had to remove them from everywhere, guess it had something to do with some other people making money out of them? Scenestuff should be free imho (as in free software).


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The current admin didn't invent Nectarine, nor did he code most of it.


Ahh OK. For that i wonder, where THE one is who invent it and coded it to restore it..?


You can read about that here.

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Nectarine is partly about preservation, deleting songs seems like a bad idea.


The owner of music has always the rights to delete content. Preservation or not.
Music is not a property for everyone who has ears.


That's my opionion aswell.
added on the 2018-06-20 18:00:09 by Shinobi Shinobi
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You can read about that here.

Ah i see. Yeah it's complicated when more people are involved into a project and maybe it would have been more fair to give people a little more space to backup their contents before closing the doors.

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I don't use Facebook, and neither should you

Through facebook i generate customers. That's all what counts in this world. I cant pay invoices or my meal from glas-trophys and nice words in the internets about my music.

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I didn't quite get what you were so angry about that you had to remove them from everywhere, guess it had something to do with some other people making money out of them?


I'm not angry. Angry is the wrong word to describe how I feel. I would rather call it:
Absolutely disappointed from deep of my heart from the whole scene.
added on the 2018-06-20 18:18:28 by d4XX d4XX
ok...
added on the 2018-06-20 18:33:47 by havoc havoc
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Absolutely disappointed from deep of my heart from the whole scene.

Why, what happened?
added on the 2018-06-20 19:01:53 by Gargaj Gargaj
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Why, what happened?

Lot of weird stuff I do not want to go too deep into the detail here.
But things happend also public with lot of lies and after that people attacking me by mail, fake accounts on those remix sites and also on facebook public on my site...

I already had drama 2007 here on pouet.
Sadly I wasn't calm enough to leave about the scene 10 years ago and i wanted to fight for my right to have a place here. Admittedly, I was certainly going often out of the tone or just misunderstood a lot because of lack of english skills. For that i apologize.

But at least I wish i didn't fighted and just leaved.
Would have saved me from wasting to much time into it.
added on the 2018-06-20 19:30:32 by d4XX d4XX
Wait, so you're bringing up something that happened in 2007?

What does that have to do with the Nectarine closure?
added on the 2018-06-20 19:46:30 by Gargaj Gargaj
There are always some bad apples, maybe they were jealous of you, or something.
On the other hand there are a lot of great people in the scene!
Sorry about your experience, daxx.
added on the 2018-06-20 19:52:04 by Shinobi Shinobi
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Wait, so you're bringing up something that happened in 2007?
What does that have to do with the Nectarine closure?


Once again missunderstanding.. i really give up here now.
Please deactivate my account here on pouet.net!
added on the 2018-06-20 19:52:08 by d4XX d4XX
Bring back Necta and Daxx! =)
added on the 2018-06-20 20:41:57 by Rapture Rapture
Gargaj said:
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Wait, so you're bringing up something that happened in 2007?
What does that have to do with the Nectarine closure?

He only mentioned this because people asked him specific questions that led him in this direction, and even then he stated that he didn't really want to make a big thing of it: "I do not want to go too deep into the detail here."

Modaxx said:
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The owner of music has always the rights to delete content. Preservation or not.
Music is not a property for everyone who has ears.

I think that Modaxx is right about this. If he created the music and wants it removed for whatever reason, he has that right. I don't think that anyone ever denied that since the first message he posted. I'm sad that he had some bad experiences in the past.

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When people stop what they did for YEARS for FREE, there are always some people who think they have a RIGHT to get it back.

Already went over this at length in the first several pages of this thread, but just to recap:
- I don't recall anyone in the thread demanding that Arab continue to provide a free service that he no longer wants to provide. Absolutely no one said "We have the 'right' that you continue working for free on our behalf."
- The issue that prompted the outcry was that a community center and cultural resource that someone other than Arab created and that hundreds worked to collectively build over many years was unilaterally removed, instead of saying "Hey guys, I can no longer serve the role of maintaining your work, I need another one of you to replace me as caretaker of this communal project." And the act was presented in such a way as to convey finality/permanence. It wasn't respectful to the many people responsible for the work.
- The people in this thread who pushed back against those who were critical of this act misconstrued the entire discourse as one about "entitlement" and "being owed something." They refuse to recognize this distinction: Arab owes no one anything in terms of a "debt", but having been entrusted with the care and maintenance of a collective work, he does have responsibilities to the community that he volunteered to serve. These responsibilities do not include continuing to work on others' behalf for free, but they certainly do include the safeguarding of the collective product that others were trusting him to protect until the time when he wanted, of his own volition, to leave that role and pass the torch on. Frustration at the rebuffing of those responsibilities should not be discounted as "entitlement."
- In Terrasque's words: "Arab is the caretaker." (And I believed I had used the word "custodian.") Arab is due gratitude for all the work he has done, as I expressed to him directly more than once when communicating via the site. But as Terrasque also so succinctly expressed it: "The phenomenon Nectarine Demoscene Radio does not belong to any one person... it belongs to the community."
- Gargaj and others posted some meaningful messages about the thankless nature of site ownership, how it can involve stress and dealing with a great deal of negativity, the kind of which could motivate someone to want out of the responsibility. la_mettrie questioned the degree to which Arab bore the brunt of any alleged negativity: "Arab did not have to deal much with any sort of talk since that was effectively delegated to moderators. He himself was not a part of the core group of the social community... instead mostly running servers at the background..." However, another Nectarine admin has mentioned (outside this thread) that there was a lot of complaining on the site over the years that could have cumulatively reached a critical mass. Regardless, I think we can give Arab empathy for whatever stress/challenges/negativity he had to face over the years, while simultaneously maintaining our sense that the way the site was closed was inappropriate and a violation of the trust people had placed in him.
- None of this is said to rake Arab over the coals, but merely to summarize the situation & discussion. A lot of the initial (and justified) indignation is cooling off, but the empathy-accountability combo that I've described above probably constitutes a consensus among the majority of the active Nectarine users, who understand that Arab had to deal with some pressures but who also don't agree with the way that the shut-down occurred.

I hope that this was a clear and balanced summary.
added on the 2018-06-20 21:39:42 by Oldchap Oldchap
all this talk is just muddying the waters! who is teh bad guy!!! shoot him
added on the 2018-06-20 23:42:03 by yzi yzi
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the suspect is eating pop corn
added on the 2018-06-20 23:53:15 by yzi yzi

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