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Thoughts on anonymized compos

category: general [glöplog]
offwhite, the why part matters, the goal of this is to have more varied and improving categories.
added on the 2016-03-29 19:40:00 by branch branch
branch: I see you're reasons and I agree it's admirable. But there's other ways of achieving diversity and encouraging improvement. Some, that doesn't have patrons like you, might get discouraged by skewed results.
added on the 2016-03-29 19:55:19 by offwhite offwhite
I sort understand of that mindset as well. I think there simply no hope for a perfect voting system especially we want to keep thing simple. But I think the current voting system is the best way to do it or atleast I personally cannot come with a better system to encouraging diversity and improvement and try to at least sort of minimize name voting.
Too bad there's no proper solutions for namevoting. It is very human to give more weight for the stuff of people who you know.
added on the 2016-03-29 20:41:07 by branch branch
Demoscene and unbiased... Ahem. It's more like, fun and tricks and shit. Voting can be against someone as much as for someone. Voting can be completely random. Self-voting, friend-voting, name-voting. Fake names and jokes disguised as serious entries. If things start to feel very controlled and "unbiased" or whatever, then it's too one-dimensional and dumb. There has to be randomness and ambiguity. I hate it when people want to get "unbiased" numbers, so they can say it's the TRUTH because numbers. Big number is good, small number is less good, scientifically measured quality of a prod. That's almost like the definition of dumbness. It bothers me that people are so uncritically accepting even the Pouet voting system and the numbers. Fuck the numbers and read actual poetry or something. Make your own mind and your own art.

By the way. Boozembly is a high-class event for cultivated beer tasting. But as you might know, a small minority of people are blatantly abusing the precious occasion for so-called boozing!
added on the 2016-03-29 20:42:12 by yzi yzi
Besides the ethics: if something is released twice in an anonymous compo and a compo with known names, it's no longer unknown who made it.
added on the 2016-03-29 20:57:09 by r1g8 r1g8
Not feasible.
How would we recognize and artificially upvote the Germanophiles if compos were anonymized - by the ugly colors only ?
...what?
added on the 2016-03-29 21:17:54 by Gargaj Gargaj
That whole anonymized compo stuff is bullshit.
If a prod is really outstanding it will rank high anyway, and if you really want to votefake you´ll do it anyway. Scene is not supposed to be pure & perfect, and releasing something for just ranking first is a bad idea either.
Messing up the party FTP files is ridiculous enough for stopping that nonsense.
added on the 2016-03-29 21:21:46 by T$ T$
I totally second what branch says!

By the way, people vote for the stuff from the people they know.....and other people do the same thing with the stuff from people they know....so it`s somehow balanced....and the neutral, independant people make the final decision. =D
added on the 2016-03-29 22:01:50 by Skyrunner Skyrunner
I still like my idea, even though nobody would ever go for it and it's completely impractical. :)

Granted, it would be a pretty weird compo (because play-order would have to be randomized as well, no more expectation building).

Also, nobody is really after a "perfect voting system" here, just simply one that rewards merit rather than the built-in bias that everone has.
added on the 2016-03-29 22:26:11 by gloom gloom
The "anonymous demo" would definitely be an interesting compo - given, as always, enough high-quality productions.

I always thought about party voting as this "do whatever you will" kind of social experiment that usually converges towards some more or less reasonable result.
added on the 2016-03-29 22:41:54 by msqrt msqrt
Quote:
Not feasible.
How would we recognize and artificially upvote the Germanophiles if compos were anonymized - by the ugly colors only ?


do you just say things to get a rise out of people or are you actually this stupid?
Quote:
do you just say things to get a rise out of people or are you actually this stupid?


humour. some get it. some hate.
added on the 2016-03-29 23:23:02 by 1in10 1in10
I like the idea of showing the names, again, and the guessing-game doesnt help anyone. I figure with most of us adults, at least physically, we can look beyond the fact that someone we know released a prod, or that "stuff from hoffmann is typically good".

A small item: for me, the livevoting alleviates some of the name-voting. I admit that I have a few times in the past, perhaps gone and checked out the Made or Louie picture an extra time, when I had to vote after the compos. Because its gotta be good right, and now I dont remember all of the entries, but better find out who of the favourites were best?

Now with the livevoting, I just have my mobile out, and throw in whatever amount of stars I like at each entry, names be damned. Imo its a fantastic system, and it goes some way, together with all the wellmade points by Offwhite and Gargaj, towards making anonymity irrelevant.
added on the 2016-03-30 00:06:09 by nic0 nic0
anonymous compos would be a lot less silly without things like this, thats for sure :=)
added on the 2016-03-30 05:29:37 by groepaz groepaz
groepaz: well that should at least keep GEMA from snooping around, right? ;)

Back on topic, I think that Gargaj's third point ..

Quote:
... seen and heard a few entries which I really dug to the point that I would've liked to discuss them with the authors during the party, but couldn't because of this. It dampens a lot of the social aspect ...


.. is a really good argument worth thinking about, and one I would like to bring up during our next organizer meeting since we currently have anonymous single artist competitions in place ourselves (as stated on the Nordlicht website). I guess the social aspect would be hampered more at large parties such as Revision, though, and less so at smaller parties where you have a much higher chance of talking to everybody about your / their entry even if it is unknown who did what during the initial screening.

I don't think anonymous compos are completely bullshit per se, there are clearly reasons for and against using them and they should be carefully evaluated. BUT putting anonymous files on scene.org is a terrible idea that will only cause a lot of management chaos in the long run!
added on the 2016-03-30 06:32:16 by SunSpire SunSpire
What I meant to say is that the reason to anonynimize entries would not be so much
to prevent name voting than to prevent nationality voting. That problem is at least worrisome as the original problem the thread starter seeked out to expose. In effect, Eastern European countries
already vote for other Eastern European countries (or recent ex-Eastern European countries).
This happens at almost every demoparty and has been widely documented and labelled the "Eurovision syndrome" ("In recent years a viewer televoting system has also helped five Eastern European countries...").
Here is a prime example of such conditioning where you can hear the boohing and the whistles even before the release is shown in the midst of some akward Eastern European dialect in the background. Also note at the end the very unusal habit of commenting down the viewed production to the audience (voters not sofasceners) in an attempt to orientate the vote from the party organising itself in favour of last (and objectively inferior) Eastern production ("[...] But wait for the next one !"). A voting graph was also provided on this site afterwards demonstrating this in an akward "not out fault" attempt.

The reason behind these flaws is bloc belonging sentiment (culture of crushing other nations) and desire to frozenly revive forever the perceived golden Amiga years Era of 1989-1993. You can soften this wrongdoing somewhat if you agree to be the "idiot utile" suck puppet and pledge allegiance to the Eastern Bloc, such as LNX or Vaahtera .

Not to be aware of this demonstrates belonging to the already favoured party and probably vainly means you're part of the problem not the solution regrettably.

Rest assured the example above is just one of many. You will not notice them of course if you do not wish to preceive them.

As we say in France "Au royaume des borgnes, les aveugles sont rois" (or Beati monoculi in terra caecorum in Latin).

This is my point of view and it is probably as incomplete as yours and certainly not meant to hurt anybody's feelings as such, in any way.
finally some drama. was about time!
added on the 2016-03-30 08:54:39 by groepaz groepaz
I'd very much prefer to see the original files uploaded to scene.org.
Regardless of that, enough valid points for both ways of doing it imho. I lean a little bit towards ditching anonymization (see other posts for reasons).

As a sidenote, in non-scene artistic fields the artist is usually considered together with his/her creation. An artists story/background/evolution provides context. Not my personal way of valuing stuff though (creation should be able to stand for itself).
added on the 2016-03-30 09:57:58 by jco jco
Quote:
As we say in France "Au royaume des borgnes, les aveugles sont rois"


Should not be "Au royaume des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois."?
added on the 2016-03-30 10:01:33 by ham ham
Since the memo apparently hasn't reached everyone yet:

Uploading the anonymised files to scene.org was a bug / human error, not The New Way We Decided To Do Things Around Here.

(and before you say "aha, but if you didn't anonymise the compos then it wouldn't have happened": yes it would, because we re-record entries for many of the compos either way)
added on the 2016-03-30 11:34:13 by gasman gasman
ah, didn't know that. no bad feelings, it's all first world problems anyway ;)
added on the 2016-03-30 11:46:13 by jco jco
A short thought that has nothing to do with finding the "most deserved" winners:
For everyone who won't win compos (see: the majority), having their name displayed during their entry is the only recognition they'll get for their work.
Anonymous compo slides rob them of that chance to get a pat on the back when their image is shown, song played or whatever the compo is about.

And no, I don't think showing all the names of the authors for a few seconds after the compo has the same effect.
added on the 2016-03-30 13:56:30 by lug00ber lug00ber
Quote:
(and before you say "aha, but if you didn't anonymise the compos then it wouldn't have happened": yes it would, because we re-record entries for many of the compos either way)

Why would you upload re-recorded versions though instead of the original file?
added on the 2016-03-30 14:17:26 by Gargaj Gargaj
Quote:
A short thought that has nothing to do with finding the "most deserved" winners:
For everyone who won't win compos (see: the majority), having their name displayed during their entry is the only recognition they'll get for their work.
Anonymous compo slides rob them of that chance to get a pat on the back when their image is shown, song played or whatever the compo is about.

Very true, especially considering that there's only room for the top seven entries on the results screen.
added on the 2016-03-30 14:35:22 by Subi Subi

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