UE4 engine vs. rendering quality of demos
category: general [glöplog]
tim sweeney would make one heck of a demoscener, too bad he's too occupied with stupid things like commercial games!
there isnt even a single rasterbar in it. nor a multiplexer. lame :)
correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't some demosceners involved with
DICE and aren't some even involved with the frostbite engine??
and about ue4, how old is ue3 ??? how long did they had to build their new
engine and how much have we seen of it yet??
cryengine seems to be bad-ass aswell . . ..
i'd say, too bad john carmack and guys haven't been involved in the demoscene :P
but then again .. game engines and demo engines .. dunno if anyone of the scene
would produce a freakin ossom bazinga whatever like demo with an game-engine????
DICE and aren't some even involved with the frostbite engine??
and about ue4, how old is ue3 ??? how long did they had to build their new
engine and how much have we seen of it yet??
cryengine seems to be bad-ass aswell . . ..
i'd say, too bad john carmack and guys haven't been involved in the demoscene :P
but then again .. game engines and demo engines .. dunno if anyone of the scene
would produce a freakin ossom bazinga whatever like demo with an game-engine????
Poo-Brain has been using Unity.
I honestly don't think that using a game engine would make demos better or worse. Someone like me who doesn't really produce demos or even good ones (yet) isn't going to magically produce something nice just by using Unity, UEx, or whatever. Those who already produce good demos aren't necessarily going to produce better ones shaking up their production method by changing to use one.
I honestly don't think that using a game engine would make demos better or worse. Someone like me who doesn't really produce demos or even good ones (yet) isn't going to magically produce something nice just by using Unity, UEx, or whatever. Those who already produce good demos aren't necessarily going to produce better ones shaking up their production method by changing to use one.
most demoengines are build upon plugs n stuff anyways, where-as game engines
are somewhat like a complete thing ..
like, i had this weird thought once in a while .. coding plugs for aE, using aE
as directing tool, coding a converter to convert the ae project to an exe, etc pp.
but game-engines don't have stuff like that, do they? like, really being able to direct
stuff with a timeline and all that bollox?!
who are poo-brain? .. don't tell me it's a demoscene group? what are the 'coder' credits? :)
then again, some demo-engines, if you pimp them up like rick james .. they might
be capable prodicing games competing with game-engines... i 'think'
but hey .. then again, i'm just a lame musician .. what the heck do i know :D
are somewhat like a complete thing ..
like, i had this weird thought once in a while .. coding plugs for aE, using aE
as directing tool, coding a converter to convert the ae project to an exe, etc pp.
but game-engines don't have stuff like that, do they? like, really being able to direct
stuff with a timeline and all that bollox?!
who are poo-brain? .. don't tell me it's a demoscene group? what are the 'coder' credits? :)
then again, some demo-engines, if you pimp them up like rick james .. they might
be capable prodicing games competing with game-engines... i 'think'
but hey .. then again, i'm just a lame musician .. what the heck do i know :D
teis: except that using aE or maya or lightwave or cinema4d or max or whatever as your director tool, stuff you see there does not look per se how it looks in your dx/opengl environment. especially lighting setup can be a bitch. so having a timeliner in your demo engine is much more WYSIWYG and with initiatives like gnurocket also not that much a pain in the ass to implement with little effort.
and game engines have timeliners, how else can they time (realtime) cutscenes or timed animations? :)
and despite that poo-brain does everything with unity, they still have coders who make several shaders for their latest productions.
and game engines have timeliners, how else can they time (realtime) cutscenes or timed animations? :)
and despite that poo-brain does everything with unity, they still have coders who make several shaders for their latest productions.
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like, i had this weird thought once in a while .. coding plugs for aE, using aE
as directing tool, coding a converter to convert the ae project to an exe, etc pp.
it's not that weird actually. that's almost exactly how we did editing for c0d3r c0l0rz, by rolling our own plugin able to load scenes from our demo engine and doing director style editing on AE pipeline. i'd say it's neither best nor the easiest option currently available though. =)
sorry, pipeline -> timeline. =]
maali: i thought aE has also a WYSIWYG previewer, like the 3d plugs rendering in realtime?! i might be wrong, though :) .. i just remember these trapcode plugs and such.
i've never got me any game-engine yet. so yea, they most probably have some timeline
feature. i only remember the q3 engine, which, i think, didn't had any timeline editor?
ye but isn't it considered 'lame' using someone else's engine?
and oh, poo-brain is knoeki?! .. didn't even know :) .. damn i'm so off of demoscene :(
ton: so you actually used aE with ur own plugs and stuff, to direct your prod?? cool :)
i wanted to do stuff like that with aE to get the H2O/Underwater wild demo done in realtime. hehe :)
i remember using aE and premiere back then, for that wild-demo.
i've never got me any game-engine yet. so yea, they most probably have some timeline
feature. i only remember the q3 engine, which, i think, didn't had any timeline editor?
ye but isn't it considered 'lame' using someone else's engine?
and oh, poo-brain is knoeki?! .. didn't even know :) .. damn i'm so off of demoscene :(
ton: so you actually used aE with ur own plugs and stuff, to direct your prod?? cool :)
i wanted to do stuff like that with aE to get the H2O/Underwater wild demo done in realtime. hehe :)
i remember using aE and premiere back then, for that wild-demo.
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Nah. Others can maybe say better but I think the operative goal is still to make great demos and entertain, however you chose to do that. The only lame things are getting in useless arguments that clog up real discussions and stealing other people's code or graphics and representing it as your own. A game engine doesn't really fall under that, as it's pretty easy to say what you used to write your demo and nobody is going to believe you wrote UEx, Unity, or whatever. :)by tEiS:
ye but isn't it considered 'lame' using someone else's engine?
teis: someone else's engine (e.g. AE's) always looks a bit different than your engine, simply as certain implementations are not 1:1. so unless the tool previews the stuff using your own engine (as Plastic's Maya tool for example did) it is quite counterproductive.
Considering this demo placed 2nd at Assembly this year, I thought I would resurrect this topic.
Even though this particular demo didn't take advantage of the UE4 engine to the same extent as the examples I posted in the first post of this thread, I still think the rendering quality (DoF etc.) was a contributing factor to the high placement.
It could be argued that this was an unfair advantage compared to lower placed demos that used entirely self-made engines.
Even though this particular demo didn't take advantage of the UE4 engine to the same extent as the examples I posted in the first post of this thread, I still think the rendering quality (DoF etc.) was a contributing factor to the high placement.
It could be argued that this was an unfair advantage compared to lower placed demos that used entirely self-made engines.
Nah, that demo just won second because of the baller soundtrack.
Then again, Emix should have totally won that compo anyway.
Then again, Emix should have totally won that compo anyway.
Sdw: Note that if you didn't watch the compostudio, there was really no way of knowing that it was UE based. Even the .nfo only contains hints (a code credit to “t. sweeney”). I suppose there was an element of trolling in here somehow :-)
I see now people say it was said on the composlide (composlides were not shown on the stream, which explains why I didn't see it).
Ekspert got second place due to it having pretty much the best direction, design and attitude in the whole compo, or at least equaling its peers. One thing is sure that it's the "coolest" and most "modern" (in a design sense) demo in the compo, with an amazing soundtrack. All of that was of course was assisted by UE too, but it's not like that's what made it win. It stood out with ease regardless of it.
Another big factor was that it was shown in the very end, right before Fairlight and ASD, which makes it seem a lot more serious contender and stick better in people's minds. The compo slots come pretty much directly from the jury (i.e. other sceners) votes, so if you need to point some fingers, there's another target.
FYI the creator didn't expect to place nearly so high, we were all blown away. The demo was largely a social experiment anyway, or in other words "troll". It seems that it worked, because we're having this discussion. I voted it for 2nd place because it's fucking brilliant, despite a 3rd party engine.
Sesse: the composlide had "UE4" listed in techniques. In fact that was the only technique listed.
Another big factor was that it was shown in the very end, right before Fairlight and ASD, which makes it seem a lot more serious contender and stick better in people's minds. The compo slots come pretty much directly from the jury (i.e. other sceners) votes, so if you need to point some fingers, there's another target.
FYI the creator didn't expect to place nearly so high, we were all blown away. The demo was largely a social experiment anyway, or in other words "troll". It seems that it worked, because we're having this discussion. I voted it for 2nd place because it's fucking brilliant, despite a 3rd party engine.
Sesse: the composlide had "UE4" listed in techniques. In fact that was the only technique listed.
I made this same comment on that demo but I will say it again here. I think the 2nd placing reflects more on the people who voted. When you have the majority of the crowd who are not demosceners and even among demosceners many don't appreciate the code and technicality the goes into some demos, well we get this result. Has it not always been controversial that "crowd pleasing" demos win over other demos which have much more time, effort and skill behind them?
What is the solution to that? The expert demo was obviously a parody of the demoscene, it was meant to be a cheesey joke. The people who made the demo were saying "look you can put generic shit on the screen with some electronic music and people think it's cool", and guess what, they were right because thats what many people voted for. It had a banging soundtrack (best part of the demo) and dancing guys. People who know nothing about demos thought it looked and sounded cool. If the same demo played at a pure demoscene party it would not have scored as high.
As for using UE, if it is within the rules of the compo then it must be accepted. If you want to ban only UE then you also need to ban a lot of other things. How would you allow werkzug for example? What about if a non coder from one of the big groups makes a demo using that groups demotool without any input from the coder? Where do you draw the line.
I don't think UE is the problem, people would not have cared if that demo got 10th place or worse. It is just a slap in the face to all the people who ranked lower (everyone except ASD) who worked so hard. That expert demo not only wasn't coded by a scener, but none of the content in it was even original. It was all premade assets made by other people downloaded for free and slapped together in UE.
The comments and thumbs on pouet show how the real demoscene feels about that demo. The problem is how do we educate the assembly party visitors not to vote for shit? Or do you just accept that crowd pleasers gonna please crowds?
What is the solution to that? The expert demo was obviously a parody of the demoscene, it was meant to be a cheesey joke. The people who made the demo were saying "look you can put generic shit on the screen with some electronic music and people think it's cool", and guess what, they were right because thats what many people voted for. It had a banging soundtrack (best part of the demo) and dancing guys. People who know nothing about demos thought it looked and sounded cool. If the same demo played at a pure demoscene party it would not have scored as high.
As for using UE, if it is within the rules of the compo then it must be accepted. If you want to ban only UE then you also need to ban a lot of other things. How would you allow werkzug for example? What about if a non coder from one of the big groups makes a demo using that groups demotool without any input from the coder? Where do you draw the line.
I don't think UE is the problem, people would not have cared if that demo got 10th place or worse. It is just a slap in the face to all the people who ranked lower (everyone except ASD) who worked so hard. That expert demo not only wasn't coded by a scener, but none of the content in it was even original. It was all premade assets made by other people downloaded for free and slapped together in UE.
The comments and thumbs on pouet show how the real demoscene feels about that demo. The problem is how do we educate the assembly party visitors not to vote for shit? Or do you just accept that crowd pleasers gonna please crowds?
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That expert demo not only wasn't coded by a scener, but none of the content in it was even original. It was all premade assets made by other people downloaded for free and slapped together in UE.
Welp! Tell me where to find that soundtrack then plox?
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It is just a slap in the face to all the people who ranked lower (everyone except ASD) who worked so hard.
I can tell you DEMO2 wasn't exactly slapped together in a weekend either.
I'm not displeased at all the demo got the place it got, quite contrary even. The real question though is what happens next. It's a cautionary example, but not a problem in and of itself.
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That expert demo not only wasn't coded by a scener...
False.
Also the soundtrack is an original one, specifically made for the demo. I don't think it's available anywhere though.
drift: Assembly has jury _and_ quadruple voting power for people with oldschool tickets. I would say this already goes a very long way against “the non-sceners will overrun us”. I'm not too worried on a general scale.
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pretty much my thoughts (and also what i told dangu when he was very surprised that someone is allowing 3rd party engines in democompos).I made this same comment on that demo but I will say it again here. I think the 2nd placing reflects more on the people who voted. When you have the majority of the crowd who are not demosceners and even among demosceners many don't appreciate the code and technicality the goes into some demos, well we get this result. Has it not always been controversial that "crowd pleasing" demos win over other demos which have much more time, effort and skill behind them?
What is the solution to that? The expert demo was obviously a parody of the demoscene, it was meant to be a cheesey joke. The people who made the demo were saying "look you can put generic shit on the screen with some electronic music and people think it's cool", and guess what, they were right because thats what many people voted for. It had a banging soundtrack (best part of the demo) and dancing guys. People who know nothing about demos thought it looked and sounded cool. If the same demo played at a pure demoscene party it would not have scored as high.
As for using UE, if it is within the rules of the compo then it must be accepted. If you want to ban only UE then you also need to ban a lot of other things. How would you allow werkzug for example? What about if a non coder from one of the big groups makes a demo using that groups demotool without any input from the coder? Where do you draw the line.
I don't think UE is the problem, people would not have cared if that demo got 10th place or worse. It is just a slap in the face to all the people who ranked lower (everyone except ASD) who worked so hard. That expert demo not only wasn't coded by a scener, but none of the content in it was even original. It was all premade assets made by other people downloaded for free and slapped together in UE.
The comments and thumbs on pouet show how the real demoscene feels about that demo. The problem is how do we educate the assembly party visitors not to vote for shit? Or do you just accept that crowd pleasers gonna please crowds?
Dont hate the product for the votes it got, dont hate the voters either. Compos are a social technical dynamic thing with many factors in the equation and I dont think the Ekspert guys know them all by hand but got quite lucky instead (or maybe not so lucky, looking at the drama going on but oh well...)
Okkie and Noby, I know the soundtrack was made for this demo, I didn't mean to imply it wasn't, just all the visual elements besides the group logo. The soundtrack fucking rocked and probably was the main reason it won, the drop at the end where it transitions to the dancers in front of the light torus kicks ass.
Not sure if perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough, but I agree this demo was very cleverly made to get votes and it did just that. I don't have a problem with people voting for what they like, I was just trying to explain why many people seem upset about it. The demo did nothing wrong, it was in the rules and it won the votes.
Sesse you are right, it made it through jury and won the votes. There is nothing wrong here other than people upset that it was made with UE which isn't against the rules. My question is to the people who are not happy with the demo placing 2nd what do they suggest be done about it? As far as I can see there is no problem here.
Not sure if perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough, but I agree this demo was very cleverly made to get votes and it did just that. I don't have a problem with people voting for what they like, I was just trying to explain why many people seem upset about it. The demo did nothing wrong, it was in the rules and it won the votes.
Sesse you are right, it made it through jury and won the votes. There is nothing wrong here other than people upset that it was made with UE which isn't against the rules. My question is to the people who are not happy with the demo placing 2nd what do they suggest be done about it? As far as I can see there is no problem here.
Noby I didn't realise Tim Sweeney was a demoscener.
tbh, i don't people are really upset it was made with UE4?