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UE4 engine vs. rendering quality of demos

category: general [glöplog]
imerso: i don't consider John Carmack or Tim Sweeney an authority on demo making, no. whatever John Carmack said about the demoscene (i don't even know he did... Tim Sweeney liked the CNS 64k, i read that) ... still, that's all as superficial as anyone else who hasn't actually made a demo yet.
Love the direction this thread is going /s
Maali, you obviously missed it.

JC also (in)famously said:
Procedural-ism is really just a truly crappy form of data compression.

There was a huge outrage, so I remember ;)
added on the 2016-11-06 00:09:54 by tomkh tomkh
But actually it's very relevant to our discussion, JC mentions here why basically core demoscene values are valuable = coding things from scratch, revisiting old platforms and trying to fit stuff into smaller size.
added on the 2016-11-06 00:19:20 by tomkh tomkh
Lol, that´s so untrue! Carmack must have had a drugged breakfast that day!

Why is Minecraft the best game ever?
Why do i still play true Roguelikes like Angband a lot?
Why does Diablo rock that much?

And since when is proceduralism about compression at all? Only used like that in the Demoscene afaik, the only place where size-limits are in use!
Proceduralism in Games is about diversity, about randomification and so on.
Oh well, i guess others had stated about the same after he said so.

I guess i am just into typing today! ;)
hardy: yeah, he was basically trying to sell his new and shiny mega-texture thingy, I don't blame him. Ironically, now he works primarily on Minecraft ;)
added on the 2016-11-06 00:26:33 by tomkh tomkh
Can someone explain this proceduralism / compression bit? Im out of the loop for this
proceduralism IS a crappy form of data compression. just compare fr-debris with gta5 and you'll see that shitloads of photoshopped 2D textures look heaps better than a bunch of stacked operators in a texgen. if you're making 60GB games like Doom 2016, clearly there's no point in procedural content as such :P
Yeah, Maali, right, right, but I know you are teasing as usual though.

Real-time procedural content generation is something that demoscene is pretty good at, while commercial engines UE4/Unity are still struggling with ;P

Then, gamedevs like No Man Sky's are clearly copying ideas developed by demoscene and take all the credit ;)

Why? Because of ignorant people like you (no offence!) :DD
added on the 2016-11-06 00:45:35 by tomkh tomkh
Yeah, Doom needed many people making assets for a long time, just so you get a Game where every level always looks the same, everytime you start it. Lots of work!
While procedural Games like Minecraft have Worlds way bigger than any DOOM-Level, billions of them possible just by changing a Random-Seed. ;)
That may also be smaller in filesize in the end, but there´s actually no data that needed to get compressed at all, so no data compression happened.
The Proceduralism is used to randomize the Worlds and Spawns of Objects etc.; That´s what proceduralism in Games is about.
In case of Diablo there arer pre-made-assets that can be puzzled together, still the proceduralism is used to randomize the Levels and Spawns etc., it´s not there to make the Data smaller...in fact the only data that this prevents is premade Levels. (which will always look the same, not much replayability there!)
"Procedural is the explanation for the universe" ™.

If there is indeed a God, it is the best ever procedural programmer.
added on the 2016-11-06 00:55:00 by imerso imerso
Please note that I though about this before some idiots (UE4 users) started to scream everywhere that God is a programmer.
added on the 2016-11-06 00:55:44 by imerso imerso
BB Image
added on the 2016-11-06 00:56:50 by tomkh tomkh
The "UE4 users" was just a joke, though.

It was some other idiot types, in fact.
added on the 2016-11-06 00:57:15 by imerso imerso
No Man Sky's are clearly copying ideas developed by demoscene and take all the credit

Well didn't work out so well I guess...
procedural generation is what defines No Man's Sky, but it sucks away any sense of structure from the experience

Why Does Procedural Generation Suck? Starring: No Man's Sky

‘No Man’s Sky’ Is Like 18 Quintillion Bowls of Oatmeal

No Man's Sky under investigation for false advertising
added on the 2016-11-06 00:58:28 by LJ LJ
LJ: sure, not only they take all the credit, but also all the beating :)
added on the 2016-11-06 00:59:38 by tomkh tomkh
Because they were opportunists who jumped ahead of people who are still investigating.

More news on Etherea2 release.
added on the 2016-11-06 01:02:25 by imerso imerso
I am almost convinced to release Etherea2 as open-source.

I am always afraid of these "short path is better" people who will simply steal the ideas/code whatever because for them code is nothing, but still, I will probably just release the fucking thing in the open, for humanity.

Not that it is really the ultimate, but still, it is a step ahead for sure.
added on the 2016-11-06 01:04:17 by imerso imerso
Because of the others who can understand.
added on the 2016-11-06 01:05:22 by imerso imerso
imerso: yep, they were way too greedy. It would have been nice of them to mention demoscene on couple of occasions, but they (unsurprisingly) forgot. Or, looking how it turned out, maybe it's for the better.
Procedural content generation is a hard problem, but will eventually show it's glory... a day will come, brothers! :)
added on the 2016-11-06 01:07:34 by tomkh tomkh
A lot of idiots do not understand that some people prefer to spend a decade or two in a deep research, sharpening their skills, to end their careers in something truly awesome. They can only see today and money, those short minded.

Fucking idiots.

I am not afraid of saying that I could "smash" any of them easily, as could most 64k/4k coders out there.

What if we 64k/4k decide to use Unreal? Lol, they are lost.

Not targetting Smash though, just joking around.
added on the 2016-11-06 01:14:11 by imerso imerso
Oh God, sorry guys, I exceeded again. =(
added on the 2016-11-06 01:15:54 by imerso imerso
I think I should avoid visiting pouet.
added on the 2016-11-06 01:19:30 by imerso imerso
What a weak God!

Proceduralism is just a Pseudo-RandomNumberGenerator that is used to determine what to put where. You can code it in some few minutes and spit out procedural data some minutes later once you decided on some things.

Use some 3DNoise, feeding your worldPosition! ;)
pRNG-number is bigger than 0.98 and height > 0.75(normalized) -> This part of the mountain is Icy;
bigger than 0.3 and smaller than 0.4 while height is lesser than 0.3 (normalized) -> Grassy;
smaller than 0.05 and height lesserEqual 0.0 -> Water!

That´s not hard to do at all! Add some fancy lighting and PostFX and you´ve got Elevated (atleast the Graphics), which looks like reality.

I saw some Documentation once where they showed that you can translate/rotate/scale parts of a mountain (and other nature stuff) and it fits somewhere else in that mountain completely, so everything is a Fractal, yes!
How is that weak, hardy, that is just genius!
added on the 2016-11-06 01:22:00 by imerso imerso


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