pouët.net

daXX: Nobody can speak for the whole scene anyways, but having Smash, Navis, or any other scener of the high profile groups nodding towards oneselves prod would be highly loved. It's not a matter of when, but what was achieved, hell - I'd even mark the calendar if Diggie found any of my prods interesting.

That said, I'm for having a jury who knows their stuff, put's even a week (or even more) into watching the nominees (hat's of to KeyJ), hoping the people who put months of work into their prods get something to put on their chimneys - because they deserve it.

that would be me... not.

Mog: Damn. I wrote a roman and my mobile phone disconnected with the session. lol... need to calm down and then i'll answer you.

Ok Mog. Good point.

But i have some questions:

- What is a high profile group for you ?
- Who put standarts to speak about "knowledge" ? (e.g.: who knows their stuff)
- Why do you think, releases needs nominated to get prices ?

I will enlighten you, why i'm asking all that. (And please... Don't take it personal anyone here!)

I think, some sceners build up cliques and always produce together.

Some groups fished out the "alltime stars" of the demoscene to feed and influence the ass-licking sceners which vote all to your so called "high profiles"... And this results always got nominated by those awards imho...

awards like this always setting limits! 4k, 2k, 64k etc pp...

To produce such a demo, you need 1 musican, 1 coder and 1 graphican... But the most groups have a lot of more members than 3 ! All the other members of this groups and a lot of other demosceners out there, never got the chance to show their skills.

There are more sceners out there which never got a part of those releases. Because awards like this always wants the few cathegories to show skills ! For me, there is more potential inside the scene and not only coding ! Sure it is an important part but democoders are rare. With your posting you exalted them to gods.. :/

A 4K Demo doesn't really impressed me since RGBA's elevated ! But a good application which works perfect for each user can impress me!

The last really impressive release was the Bitfellas Musicdisc because there was given a chance to show more sceners skills imho... Give them a nomination. (if they do not already have one)...

i would like to see a more open scene, more work together with passion and not to beat each other.

Groups that have a level of dedication, strive for breaking boundaries, show off something new (or in a different light/angle), and tend to reinvent themselves.
Sure to ones mind come the more known groups, who explored and left behind the things us "younguns" haven not even seen on the horizon. Which surely doesn't mean that somebody who didn't do demos for 20 years is less capable of seeing the technical achievement in something.



Well, that depends - and right now I only have the thought of "trust" to define that. I think we can agree, and trust, Wade tell apart a good and a bad palette, Gargaj to tell a good from a bad bassline, and so on. We might not always agree on some persons, however each and everyone might have someone to look up upon, or ask for help when doing something for a compo.


Basically it preselects demos for the jury, I don't have the count how many demos per year are released, but I'm pretty sure a jury member would have to take a very long vacation to watch them all.
And sure, by nominating we might loose some of the lesser known prods that have that something - but finding the middle ground might also mean to sacrifice some of them (not saying I endorse it).

--

I see your point, and can tell you I usually don't put more than an actual week work into into a prod - and then read that Navis starts months before a party, same for oldshool platforms, and a lot of others do so as well.
So this might be called asslicking, as it seems it's always the same people - but it's actually also mostly the same people who put a shitton of work into it.
Sure there's more than just code, the guys over at the modulez OHC astonish me almost every weekend when they do tunes in one hour that loop for days in my music player,- there's a lot of cool stuff happening under the surface.


It's actually more respect than anything, they do things I cant - though I have the same tool they have just in front of me :)


Actually I feel like it is this way, there's no "uh, can't speak with them as they're from group x" - if you ask around on IRC or on a party you'll always find someone with a bit of time helping or explaining something. I think here on the BBS most seem a lot rougher as they actually are :)

And EVERYONE should get their own award so that noone feels excluded!
;)

Then I think we're talking about different things, because if you're saying that the Scene.org Awards failed at nominating the most best demos of the year in the "best demo"-category, and that this did not match the general demoscene public's view of which demos were the best, then you're just wrong.

Korvkiosken: this comes to mind :)

gloom: "Best demo" and "Best intro" were the categories they fucked up the least, but that doesn't mean they weren't without obvious errors. The first Scene.org Awards failed to nominate demos like "Liquid...wen?" and "a deepness in the sky", in favor of crap like "Halla" for best demo. The certainly did not succeed in my opinion, especially considering that this is "so easy".

by cliques you mean .. friends?



there's pretty clear evidence of "alltime stars" coming back and their input making a demo great, resulting in a demo that won awards; and there's pretty clear evidence of "alltime stars" coming in and the demo not being great, and the demo not winning any awards. most people (ok, give or take a couple of well known exceptions..) arent fooled by names anymore, they care about what gets made as a result.



why, because a top demo coder or artist never came along and begged them to do a soundtrack or a pic for them? given the current situation in the scene where quality combined with activity is hard to find in any department - even many good coders are struggling to find a good artist/designer or musician - pretty much any genuinely skilled scener should be able to find an outlet. if they really have those skills, that is.
do you know how hard we find it to get a soundtrack for a demo these days? very.
you know how many mails i get every month from musicians saying "hi, check out my tracks"? none. it seems more to me like people dont want to get off their asses and share their skills.
or are you talking about e.g. people with great but useless skills in swapping or something :)


it's true - e.g. crinkler, kkrunchy or 4klang or werkzeug probably deserved a special award at some point for services to the scene, but at least the authors all won awards for their own productions.
otherwise, what on earth are you talking about? there are specialist categories for music, graphics, direction, original concept.. actual coding input is only recognised in a few categories (beyond the outdated notion of a coder as "the person who has to design and make the entire demo while being told what to do by the others" - we have tools nowadays).


the scene is incredibly open now. the days of people only working inside their traditional group and never sharing anything in the spirit of leet competition is long gone. people make demos for fun with their friends nowadays, and in general the few active people still around - at any skill level - are very willing to help one another in the name of seeing more demos.

kusma: halla was a great demo, deepness in the sky is just hypnoglow :)
(which goes to show how opinions differ)

smash: Halla was a study in bad lighting and intersecting geometry, and you know it. But don't just take my word for it, check out what people here on pouët.net think about the matter.

kusma: which just goes to show how a pouet award would miss these underrated classics the scene.org awards managed to recognise.. :)

I liked halla a lot

smash: "Best demo" isn't coup de coeur. It's not the "most underrated classic"-award. It literally is to pick the best demo. And since that's a subjective matter, majority rules. But thanks for proving my point; even "Best demo" and "Best intro" isn't trivially easy to pick, as gloom say they are.

Sometimes it is. Like, last year...

variform2!!!

kusma: i would say halla is a great, artistic demo with depth that might get missed by pouet or at a party; the kind of demo the awards was meant to pick up. deepness in the sky is in your face, flashy and obvious so it does just as well at the party / pouet (but still deserves awarding).
but yes youre right, i dont think best demo or best intro are easy to award.

it's easy to see which is the most popular - pouet/parties/public votes tell us that.
but "best", the one that does something genuinely new, clever, inspirational, a milestone.. that's a hard task to pick and it can take some trained and dedicated eyes to do it.

but that's what is funny about the scene (pouet) and the concept of public voting being the way to decide "the best".
everybody knows that justin beiber isnt the best musical artist on the planet and twlight doesnt deserve an bafta. they know that there's a difference between crowd-pleasing pop and something that is genuinely innovative, clever, remarkable etc. they may not love the film that wins the bafta but they respect it and can say that objectively its probably a great film, even if not to their taste. they leave it to the film makers, the experienced trained eyes, to pick what they believe is "the best".
but when it comes to demos, everybody on pouet thinks they have an expert valid opinion. :) whats up with that?

also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkCwFkOZoOY

BTW: What about jury- AND public-vote in EVERY category (after seperated nomination by jury and public of course). So the jury can award their most-original demo and the crowd awards what the crowd think it was the best one. Could be interesting if a demo wins both sections or there are two total different ones: »Demo Of The Year (Jury)« and »Demo Of The Year (Public)«

so you have to watch it in a jazzclub or smth?

but i agree. the overall "package" of halla impresses me more than deepness and thus it made sense it was part of the best demos. that liquid wen was missing is a bummer though. it was better than both, but i assume people were having a visualice-fatigue back then or smth ;)

Gargaj: I disagree. Last year is difficult because it's difficult to find 5 demos that are worth nominating. There's just too much second-class stuff to find 5 good nominees :)

Smash: If you start to define "best" as what it means to YOU, then possibly (but still possibly not; none of the words you listed describe how I feel about Halla). But I don't think that's the same definition that everyone else has. That's the reason why I don't think it's easy.

And by the way, Halla certainly did not get missed at the party; it placed second as Assembly. You probably intended that part after the semicolon, no?

But if an award show's purpose is to "pick up" some demos that for some reason the scene cannot appreciate without help, then that's certainly not speaking for the whole scene. I would personally like to see awards that tries to speak for the scene as whole instead of something that pretends to, but in reality speaks on the behalf of some elitist, self-proclaimed experts.

Anyway, I'm going to ease down on my participation in these derailed sub-discussions. Discussing Halla isn't all that exciting after all. I suggested an approach that I think would work better than that of the Scene.org Awards, but I'm certainly not going to arrange any awards myself (except perhaps for the highly subjective Kusma Awards). If someone decides to pick up where Scene.org Awards left off, feel free to read my original post and follow the advice they feel fits.

kusma: youre right, everybody's idea of what they want from a demo is different. especially these days when the scene is probably more varied (/fractured) than ever. which means pleasing everyone is impossible, and the middle ground would be horrible.



lets be honest though. aside from gargaj's fleeting suggestion about a pouet awards, it's never going to happen is it? :)
and if it did.. heaven help the person who wants to deal with the truckload of differing opinions on how it should be.

And with that being the final words this matter, we can now all move on with tumbling.

You're right Maytz, this thread needs more kittens