The scene, intellectual property and double standards
category: offtopic [glöplog]
even though commercial piracy, both as selling pirated stuff, and using pirated stuff for commercial use, is wanked, it still winds down to what kb said. if you can't earn money on it, gtfo.
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Let's rephrase that:
You say demoparty visiters should use common sense? Maybe software users should do the same.
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this. this mindset is what im talking about. if people would stay outside the party place to jump the entry fee it would be
a) stupid and shortsighted because the event happening again after a big financial loss is unlikely and
b) not the demoscene as we know it
Let's rephrase that:
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this. this mindset is what im talking about. if people would wait for the crackers to get out the game for free to jump the money they would usually have to pay it would be
a) stupid and shortsighted because a new software being written again after a big financial loss is unlikely
You say demoparty visiters should use common sense? Maybe software users should do the same.
However I have to say that I really like the concept of contract work much more... If you write a new software for a contracting entity, you have a secure income (well, kind of) and there is no way that the software could be pirated, because it doesn't exist yet. Now of course this doesn't work with the current system how e.g. games are written... they are just thrown into the market and everyone hopes that the game will sell well. Maybe we need more games being financed through Kickstarter an the like, since that is pretty much similar to the contract work stuff.
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Could everyone in here who is a software developer and complains about piracy and the warezscene please list all the software you have been working on that has been commercially released? gargaj, preacher, keops etc. no bashing, I promise, I am just very very curious.
i'm working on a subscription based online game so i'm somewhat protected against piracy.
Dubmood: Since 2006, I've worked on the following games:
Mafia Wars Yakuza (mobile)
Tornado Mania (mobile)
Rollercoaster Rush 3D (mobile)
Brick Breaker Revolution (mobile)
No-Limit Casino 12-pack (mobile)
Tower Bloxx Deluxe (PC)
Tower Bloxx Deluxe (Xbox 360)
Crazy Penguin Party (mobile + iPhone)
Underground 3D Rollercoaster Rush (iPhone)
Wild West 3D Rollercoaster Rush (iPhone)
Nanostars Siege (Facebook)
Hollywood City (iPhone)
Vegas City (iPhone)
3D Beach Mini Golf (iPhone)
Zombie Revolution (iPhone)
Ridge Racer Unbounded (Xbox360/PS3/PC)
So a bunch of mobile and console games, some quite popular and well-received. In addition to those, I've done a bunch of internal tools and engine development and a bunch of other stuff that has been used in other products but that I don't want to take credit for.
(and for the record, when I found out that the Tower Bloxx PC version, which I personally think is shit unlike the xbox 360 version which is cool, was cracked and trained by someone, I felt proud that someone had bothered to do that with a game that I had worked on)
Mafia Wars Yakuza (mobile)
Tornado Mania (mobile)
Rollercoaster Rush 3D (mobile)
Brick Breaker Revolution (mobile)
No-Limit Casino 12-pack (mobile)
Tower Bloxx Deluxe (PC)
Tower Bloxx Deluxe (Xbox 360)
Crazy Penguin Party (mobile + iPhone)
Underground 3D Rollercoaster Rush (iPhone)
Wild West 3D Rollercoaster Rush (iPhone)
Nanostars Siege (Facebook)
Hollywood City (iPhone)
Vegas City (iPhone)
3D Beach Mini Golf (iPhone)
Zombie Revolution (iPhone)
Ridge Racer Unbounded (Xbox360/PS3/PC)
So a bunch of mobile and console games, some quite popular and well-received. In addition to those, I've done a bunch of internal tools and engine development and a bunch of other stuff that has been used in other products but that I don't want to take credit for.
(and for the record, when I found out that the Tower Bloxx PC version, which I personally think is shit unlike the xbox 360 version which is cool, was cracked and trained by someone, I felt proud that someone had bothered to do that with a game that I had worked on)
wtf you worked on the new ridge racer? :D i didnt even realize that was a bugbear title :D
And I don't really complain about piracy per se, because that is, indeed, the reality that pretty much every software developer must live with. What I complain about is the (in my opinion poor) justifications for it and the sense of entitlement that is rife among pirates and geeks. I also don't like the attitudes that a lot of the said people have towards people who actually spend their time and money creating art.
Not that I go without a blame myself. My first demos were written in pirated compilers and when I was young, I probably pirated more games than I can count. Right now I am mostly clean though and I intend to stay that way.
Not that I go without a blame myself. My first demos were written in pirated compilers and when I was young, I probably pirated more games than I can count. Right now I am mostly clean though and I intend to stay that way.
Yeah, I did most of the actual gameplay, as well as some AI, cameras, UGC, career, achievements and other crap.
Let me rephrase what I meant: I couldn't care less if you take software or other digital content without paying for it or not, just don't think it somehow makes you Robin the fucking Hood. Also, it basically means that other people are paying for your free ride.
Dubmood: I guess I have to cry myself to sleep, yet again, because you disagree with something I've said without offering anything in terms of a retort than "You're really stupid". However will I manage ;)
Speaking about "double standards", I find it odd that the law condones the selling and buying of second hand stuff. I mean, by buying your IKEA kitchen table from your brother in law rather than from the store, aren't you depriving someone of their rightful profit? Aren't you "pirating furniture", avoiding taxes, etc.? Alright, in this case the good hasn't been copied, but what if you get a used video game from your buddy, paying for it? Digital media laws/technologies are sometimes devised to prevent you from doing just that... Should manufacturer in every area promote similar schemes, would that be right/fair/"green"? (IKEA DRM: your Pax Birkeland will break down to pieces if you try to move it away from the bedroom)
There's plenty of goods being sold/bought in this completely uncontrolled, tax exempt, potentially illegal way... Yet no fuss is as big as the one made about teenagers torrenting useless pop music...
There's plenty of goods being sold/bought in this completely uncontrolled, tax exempt, potentially illegal way... Yet no fuss is as big as the one made about teenagers torrenting useless pop music...
well no, since you OWN the ikea kitchen table and not just a license for using it =)
Exactly, the conundrum is (and it's a trite argument, I know), not being allowed to do whatever you want with something like a DVD: so easy to pass on to other people (I'm not event talking about copying it, here).
And even if you own the IKEA kitchen table, selling it for money should imply some taxes being paid. As it happens with cars/houses, where transactions are regulated by the laws (only the Government directly benefits from that: I don't think redistributes part of that income back to car manufacturers).
And even if you own the IKEA kitchen table, selling it for money should imply some taxes being paid. As it happens with cars/houses, where transactions are regulated by the laws (only the Government directly benefits from that: I don't think redistributes part of that income back to car manufacturers).
if you're talking about the console boxed market, 2nd hand games - sold on the shelves next to new games in major retailers - hurts hugely more than piracy (which is still very much a small minority exercise).
again, market forces are sorting this out - a drive towards games being bought through e.g. psn which doesnt suffer from this.
again, market forces are sorting this out - a drive towards games being bought through e.g. psn which doesnt suffer from this.
I'd have thought piracy would be quite a big problem on the xbox, from what I've seen?
Downloaded content is ok, but I think prices have to be a whole lot lower to make up for what we're losing (like the ability to resell, or even to take a game round to a mate's house once in a while).
It'd be a whole lot better if software was treated like furniture, and you bought it rather than licensed it.
Downloaded content is ok, but I think prices have to be a whole lot lower to make up for what we're losing (like the ability to resell, or even to take a game round to a mate's house once in a while).
It'd be a whole lot better if software was treated like furniture, and you bought it rather than licensed it.
psonice: chains like gamestop/ebgames who mostly sells second hand games is a much larger threat to the software companies than piracy. This is especially true on platforms like 360 and PS3. Some of the biggest publishers has been very vocal about this the last couple of years.
If you look at games from ie. EA, many of them ships with a large potion of the content being locked to your account using a single-use unlock code. These features are often made available separately on Live/PSN for people who's somehow lost their code, or (mostly) for people who buys the game second hand. This is a way for the publishers to get a cut of that sale too.
On another note. We are slowly moving towards free2play/freemium models, which i fear will leave us with fewer good singleplayer experiences.
If you look at games from ie. EA, many of them ships with a large potion of the content being locked to your account using a single-use unlock code. These features are often made available separately on Live/PSN for people who's somehow lost their code, or (mostly) for people who buys the game second hand. This is a way for the publishers to get a cut of that sale too.
On another note. We are slowly moving towards free2play/freemium models, which i fear will leave us with fewer good singleplayer experiences.
there are (at least) 3 three things wrong with that picture: 1) that man should be carrying a fisher's net instead of that bad ass RPG. 2) the large part of the profit they make should not end up in the 1st world (but they do supply the RPGs. how convenient.) 3) we should stay the f.ck out of those people businesses (commercial fishing, mining for deep sea oil). good morning everyone, btw.
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or even to take a game round to a mate's house once in a while).
Hear, fucking hear!
psonice: the clear difference between games and furniture is that games and movies are often meant to be played through once or a small number of times, at which point you've got your expected use out of it (and got what you paid for out of it). therefore if you sell it on you don't really lose anything, you gain money and someone else gains a cheap copy of the game to get their use out of. and sell on.
if you sell your table, you can't get use out of it anymore because you dont have anything to eat off.
maybe games should get more shit over time - slowly lose quality, run slower etc - until you pay for it again. like cars. how about that huh?
if you sell your table, you can't get use out of it anymore because you dont have anything to eat off.
maybe games should get more shit over time - slowly lose quality, run slower etc - until you pay for it again. like cars. how about that huh?
"we can't play tf2 tonight, my copy is leaking score and currently being repaired at the steam workshop"
smash: yeah, that's the missing ingredient - software should decay over time, and either need repair or replacement. That actually happens (try running your old amiga games on your PS3, you'll find you either need to buy new games or spend a whole lot of effort getting an emulator running!) but not enough to be an issue for such a short-lived product as a game.
With music these days you're generally allowed to play the content you bought on x number of devices - that's basically the equivalent of an object decaying and becoming unusable after a while. With the same system for games it'd be possible to play at a friends house, or to sell it on a few times.
And yes, I realise that 2nd hand games are lost sales to the publishers. So is basically everything that gets re-sold. I think that's just something you have to live with, so long as it's not excessive (with a game, the possibility exists to buy 1 copy and sell it an infinite number of times by copying it - obviously that's totally unworkable for the publisher).
With music these days you're generally allowed to play the content you bought on x number of devices - that's basically the equivalent of an object decaying and becoming unusable after a while. With the same system for games it'd be possible to play at a friends house, or to sell it on a few times.
And yes, I realise that 2nd hand games are lost sales to the publishers. So is basically everything that gets re-sold. I think that's just something you have to live with, so long as it's not excessive (with a game, the possibility exists to buy 1 copy and sell it an infinite number of times by copying it - obviously that's totally unworkable for the publisher).
isnt that what a limited number of "activations" at install-time is all about (at least on pc)?
Slightly off-topic, but i don't want to start a new thread.
When you release material (be it a demo, intro, picture, music etc.) on pouet and/or a demoparty, what are your rights concerning the material. Say if you had a picture in a compo and you later used it (or parts of it) in commercial use.
I have never read any disclaimers or such from party-organizers, and it would be interesting to know more about this.
When you release material (be it a demo, intro, picture, music etc.) on pouet and/or a demoparty, what are your rights concerning the material. Say if you had a picture in a compo and you later used it (or parts of it) in commercial use.
I have never read any disclaimers or such from party-organizers, and it would be interesting to know more about this.
From the Revision website:
Almost every demoparty has a passage like that in their rules.
What you use later for commercial use is up to you. The rules usually just state that you're not allowed to use PREVIOUSLY released stuff - be it on facebook, deviantart, your blog or whatever.
Also, handing in art that you've made as contract work for your employer or similar _might_ be frowned upon - not sure about that, actually :)
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Compo entries, whole or in part, may not have been released before. Please contact the compo organizers in advance if you have any doubts. Pure rips or copies will be kicked from the competition without further notice.
Almost every demoparty has a passage like that in their rules.
What you use later for commercial use is up to you. The rules usually just state that you're not allowed to use PREVIOUSLY released stuff - be it on facebook, deviantart, your blog or whatever.
Also, handing in art that you've made as contract work for your employer or similar _might_ be frowned upon - not sure about that, actually :)
