pouët.net

kb: My memory is too bad to say much about 2000. What I can say however is: Fashion and me are different persons, and the idea of me being liable for her own believes from 20 years ago most likely will violate some of the social justice standards you clearly believe in, right?

I've never claimed a conspiracy. And you clearly can't know on how much time I had invested to broaden my perspective, give in, try to find compromises.

May I remind that by the time this has exploded I already had removed all images that those two people had complained about, but that the shit storm didn't stop? I did ask again and again to be left alone so that I can focus on THIS Underground Conference.

I am sorry, but my ego is fine.

See, you've been to Outline this weekend. I have spent the weekend with getting distracted again and again from being able to organize my demoparty for the people I love, which includes you.

Everybody that had issues with my approached I have talked to I was able to come to an agreement to either bring our world views closer together, or at least have both sides respect that the other side has a different one.

But strangely everytime I hope that this thread finally dies, and that finally Wayfinder just LEAVES ME ALONE, it starts again.

I have deleted the sjw.html page on the request of MULTIPLE people involved, including Wayfinder himself. But hey, yeah, standards and what. A public website that uses a pseudonym that even ryg himself was not able to decipher (he guesses the person 'named' to be him) vs. people calling me 'asshole' on Twitter (and this is how it started 8 weeks ago).

I am sorry, these are fucking double standards. Don't blame my ego for other peoples double standards.

I'd like to point out that ryg and me have talked openly about this, and both are happy with how we have agreed to make sure we don't get into such a shit again anymore. We both clearly had the intention to improve something.

And it wasn't even hard. We've agreed that everyone is free to criticize whatever I put out as much as he wishes, but that it is reasonable that sceners criticizing sceners do so in scene media instead of in the public. I have learned my lesson that next time I do stuff that is fine for sceners but controversial to the outside world I simply will ask the Revision organizers to disable the Twitch stream for that moment.

That wasn't hard.

I have the feeling others might still be missing the intent to improve something, and are quite happy with this shit going on and on and on and on.

*But strangely everytime I hope that this thread finally dies, and that finally Wayfinder just LEAVES ME ALONE, i post again.

FTFY

Why does it upset you? It's only words. If I understand you correctly, you claim that it's everyone's own choice to be hurt by words or not, or does that only apply to others? You also said that you value intent over words, I'm pretty sure no one set out to hurt you, or does that also only apply when you had good intentions while hurting someone else?



What about the sceners who have a problem with that? As far as I can tell, right now, it's sceners calling you out for your behavior.

It does not upset me because of the words. It upsets me because I see that for a small but significant chunk of the scene, I can not even share the most basic part of my world view and ethics.

There is a universal right to freedom of speech
There is a universal right to freedom of expression
There is no universal right to feel hurt by speech
There is no universal right to receive someone elses speech

Unless we can agree on those, there is nothing to build upon. It is kinda shocking to see that some people get into days-long discussions about their right to shit storm on twitter to "protect the weak" (they have never asked if they wish to be protected), but can't even agree on these standards. That's just sad.

So, what's frustrating and depressing is seing that if you just quickly knock on the people I shall no longer call "Social Justice Warriors" for 'because else there will be outrage!' reasons, you find out there is just bigotry and a hell lot of empty space behind.

im being serious when i say, ask a human rights lawyer if they think that there are feelings people do not have a right to feel.

"There is no universal right to feel hurt by speech" is some straight-up Orwellian shit.

German, coz all protagonists in this sandbox deserve my meltdown in their native language.

Jungs, echtmal.

kb, Dinge die vor 20 Jahren von Fashion fabriziert wurden...da hat Fashion ihren eigenen Rant Thread verdient.

20 Jahre ey....man war ICH damals ein Arschloch.
Und kb hatte viel zu große Lackhosen an.
Und scamp eine Scheissfrisur.
Und Antje war noch nichtmal schwanger mit dem Kerl der jetzt bei uns wohnt.*
(*ich mag den)

Alle anderen, könnt ihr BITTE BITTE BITTE zur UC kommen und euch dort mal so richtig sachlich/unsachlich anschreien? Ohne Publikum?

Ich denke das hilft.
Holt mal die Leichen aus dem Keller und begrabt sie ordentlich oder zündet sie an.
Das ist doch kacke so.

Macht 1 gegen 1 (ohne treten) und und dann ist gut.
Ihr schreibt euch alle in Rage (ich auch grad...)
Dampf ablassen ist nötig und überfällig, aber dafür eignet sich die UC doch gut.
Da sind scheinbar, wenn ich mir so einige Trittbrettfahrer dieses Kriegs anschaue - sogar noch Rechnungen aus der Breakpoint Zeit offen.

"Arschloch" lässt sich viel geiler sagen - als schreiben.
Und ein "Tut mir leid" geht einem auch viel leichter über die Lippen.
Und selbst wenn nicht - kann man Waffenstillstand vereinbaren.

Ihr seid meine Freunde und mir wesentlich wichtiger als ihr euch vorstellen könnt (ich erwarte das nicht im Umkehrschluss...mein Wertesystem ist kompliziert) und das fühlt sich alles nicht gut an.

Und spätestens wenn (ja Frauke hasse mich ruhig dafür...) Fashion zuhause sitzt bzw. saß und weint, weil das was hier passiert einfach viel zu weit geht - dann ist das nur EIN Zeichen dafür das ihr alle (!) zu weit gegangen seid.

Eben wird noch Hochzeit gefeiert und drei Wochen später ist Mord und Totschlag.
Ihr habt sie doch (alle) nicht alle.

Und erspart mir bitte "ich habe nichts was mir Leid tun müsste".
Wer Recht hat und wer nicht ist MIR völlig egal.

Ich mag keinen weniger als vorher und keinen mehr als vorher.
Ich möchte bitte das das einfach aufhört...
Geht das bitte?

Dieser Scheiss ist eurer Intelligenz nicht würdig.
This thing must come to an end.

It is your own choice whether you use your time to organize a demoparty or to make yourself look like an arsehole.

And regulating and sanitizing language down to quasi "no-no-banning" words isn't?

i wouldn't say any word was banned, these are just words that make you look like an asshole (on either side) and people can call you out for it :)

I don't have the slightest clue how you managed to misunderstand me THAT hard. The "where were you" was a rhetorical device. The whole thing was an anecdote, and the message was "sometimes it's the right course of action to just shut up and listen, maybe the other person has a point". At that moment I was pretty mad at her how she could be so offended at what was clearly some harmless fun. But I was wrong. And had I not eventually swallowed my pride but instead, say, incited a strike of surrealist erotica connoisseurs at the UC infodesk, the whole party would have been quite worse for it.

As for the rest... if you say so. Let's just place it on record that my enthusiasm for UC9 is quite dampened by the way you decided to handle things. We're all adults. I know and like almost everyone who ever attended UC and will attend UC9, and as of now none of those people are in the slightest way marginalized or victimized for attending a demoparty. That whole "us against them" thing doesn't make any sense (anymore).

And I've always felt at home at UC also for the fact that, yes, it's a kind of refuge for shitty humor, and yes, there needs to be a place for that. But that was because it was just that because of freedom, not because of dogma. And currently you come across as dogmatic af. I even have a good idea why you're doing all this but let me at least say that what made UC special was that all that chaos just emerged from the people being there feeling free, not from somebody dictating how it should be. Just let go a little. I'm pretty sure we all will make it worthwhile.

"quasi" ... the two terms before that were employed indeed -- from my observation. The last term you emphasized on may be the result of the former.

Ok. I tried very hard not to post anything but ffs this is so absurd.

Scamp: We had quite good conversation on IRC before you started this thread. I believed you understood my point of view what came to compo naming and the logo (which you kindly removed from the website) but you still had to continue it here.

Some background: I'm a scener who happens to use wheelchair because *drumdroll* I'm physically disabled. I was at Revision and saw the invitations and the meltdown on the closing ceremony.

Yes, I feel uncomfortable with the "paralymp3" compo name. As we already discussed on IRC it has NOTHING to do with being disabled or so but the name and the logo refers to it. And that's the problem. THAT'S THE FUCKING REAL PROBLEM HERE. NOT WORDS OR SOMEONE GETTING TO YOU ON TWITTER. IT'S YOUR INABILITY TO SEE THAT YOU FUCKED UP. Also others who participated to make these things fucked up. It's not only on you. However, it seems only wayfinder was able to admit that you (referring to all involved) fucked up and he apparently wanted to right things.

I don't think the right way to deal with this is to remove the invitation demos or censor what already happened. Just admitting that this maybe wasn't the most bright thing to do is enough. However you are doing the exact opposite. Because apparently people like me got offended and we want to silence you.

Well first things first: I didn't get offended. I just got uncomfortable and thought that I don't want to visit the party. I did hope that someone call you out on this as I just didn't have the energy to bother. (Yes, it's consuming to fight for your existence on daily base.) Well someone did. Calling out doesn't meant that people want to silence you. They just want to broaden your view and make you see that what you did wasn't maybe the best thing to do. You can accept and apologize or you can just continue as before and ignore the call out. However, people will judge you based on the outcome. Which is not silencing but their freedom to their opinion.

For me the outcome shows that you don't care a shit about how someone else perceives your party. And it's ok. Just don't fucking play a victim here. I don't censor your words, no one else censor those. However I do judge you based on your reactions as you judged e.g. wayfinder. Reading this thread I got the impression you don't like that people have different worldview than you. As if you didn't care why bother to continue this discussion?

However I'm still very very very pleased that you removed the logo from the website. Thanks. Now fix your ego, please.

I don't know how to deal with this: on one side, every new comment will just ignite the problem even more (yes docd), on the other side people are leaving the scene because there is not enough pushback.

Anyway. What happened? Roughly?

Without any censorship, the demos were shown. Then some people use their free speech to give an opinion. Strong language is used. No censorship.

Then a request was made to make the UC more inclusive. This request was denied. This is something every event has to think about: what kind of people do we want to attract. No censorship.

Someone was banned from the UC. This person posted the fact. Free speech, no censorship.


Scamp can not at the same time be outraged by people using free speech, even in strong language and may be the wrong forum, while holding absolutist position for free speech and promoting a trickle down conspiracy about free speech.

Well, of course he can, but it is ridiculous.

And Scamp, please check whose propaganda you are spreading. This is embarrising.

If scamp tried to swallow his pride he'd choke to death.

words are weapons. Think about propaganda, mass media and trump 2016.

words can hurt. No explanations needed. If you don't get it as fashion.

this is just too much.

Oh holy. Just checked back with a friend of mine (down syndrome) - she is still laughing her ass of about the PARALYMP3 bullshit...



Those should probably just go to another party instead of UC and don't participate in that offending compo? Maybe they could make a white knight demo about it.

With all due respect, what docd said.

If it's not possible to settle this for the moment, I'd find asking and talking about intentions much more frugal than actions.

Sir:Fresse echt.

The whole discussion aside - the audience has spoken. If they were that offendend, the Revision results different.

*were

Indeed. I'm not attending and I go to other parties. That's not the problem. Although giving this as much thought as making a demo about it would be just too much. This bs does not deserve so much of time as making demo takes.

THAT.
And a lot of people already made their decision (see you there!)