Demoscene, the youth & future - And outreaching
category: general [glöplog]
Everyone knows (or should know) that is the case, which sort of makes it an interesting proposition to try to gather experienced coders and newbies in one location.
keops, don't worry you haven't hurt my feelings at all :)
ahah, good.
It was a general remark and I know from experience that some demoscene people hate to hear about that fact ;)
It was a general remark and I know from experience that some demoscene people hate to hear about that fact ;)
videogames are moral decay keops!
ok, so we've established that there are both young aspiring coders and skilled gfx coders in e.g. gamedev communities. how would they find out about the demoscene, and why would they find it cool enough so they'd want to contribute?
what about the musicians and the gfx artists? what does the demoscene have to offer for them?
what about the musicians and the gfx artists? what does the demoscene have to offer for them?
yeh, where are the bitches 'n bling?
reed: well for one we've got truckloads of latent homosexuality?
i'm pretty sure that counts for something
i'm pretty sure that counts for something
ten four, officer. spread 'em!
Quite a few people I've talked to are interested in the scene, and would be interested in making a demo. The jump from 'interested' to 'committing much time and effort and attending a party' is a big jump though.
Perhaps a dedicated compo for some of these people, with a prize attractive enough to get their interest? I can definitely see some demand for say a processing competition, with a demo format + rules.
Perhaps a dedicated compo for some of these people, with a prize attractive enough to get their interest? I can definitely see some demand for say a processing competition, with a demo format + rules.
it all depends on what young talented artists are looking for, really:
- money? the demoscene is fundamentally non-commercial, so you cant make money fast, which you might be able with a decent enough game and a paypal account.
- fame? well, that depends, sure, you will be famous within the demoscene if you're good enough, but that restricts your fame to the demoscene and its minimal agglomeration because noone else gets what a demo is. everyone understands what a game is, and again, if it's good enough, it will spread. (knytt and kloonigames stuff, for one)
- artistic outlet? with the internet, that's pretty much a signupform away.
the thing is, i still uphold the theory that the demoscene is like the silhouette of the rotating girl: some people see it and say it's rotating clockwise, and other people say the opposite, and very few people are able to switch between the two. you see a demo and you either get it immediately, or you probably never will. (much like how, say, heavy metal will always remain noisy guitarshredding to some and a sacred way of life to others.)
when i saw my first demos, i knew in a gut feeling that i have to find out how this stuff is done and when i read up about it i found everything about the scene extremely interesting and appealing, so i went to my first party and the pieces just fit - i'm sure it was like this for a lot of demosceners. you have to remember though that in the 90s, computer stuff was a lot easier to mesmerize, and especially subcultural stuff was just raising its head, everyone was easier to pull in because we werent up the ass in "interesting stuff" (=youtube).
if someone wants to become a demoscener, they will, regardless of how much shit they get for their first demo, or even if they don't make demos, but just visit parties often - so many non-sceners at breakpoint went "shit, i gotta make stuff next time, this is amazing". the same goes the other way around - you cant force artists to become demosceners even if they're good enough: i've seen many graphics artists and musicians get involved, hell, even make something for a demo, but just splintered away because they weren't necessary interested in either the "demo" or the "scene".
to put it short: demoscene is destiny.
- money? the demoscene is fundamentally non-commercial, so you cant make money fast, which you might be able with a decent enough game and a paypal account.
- fame? well, that depends, sure, you will be famous within the demoscene if you're good enough, but that restricts your fame to the demoscene and its minimal agglomeration because noone else gets what a demo is. everyone understands what a game is, and again, if it's good enough, it will spread. (knytt and kloonigames stuff, for one)
- artistic outlet? with the internet, that's pretty much a signupform away.
the thing is, i still uphold the theory that the demoscene is like the silhouette of the rotating girl: some people see it and say it's rotating clockwise, and other people say the opposite, and very few people are able to switch between the two. you see a demo and you either get it immediately, or you probably never will. (much like how, say, heavy metal will always remain noisy guitarshredding to some and a sacred way of life to others.)
when i saw my first demos, i knew in a gut feeling that i have to find out how this stuff is done and when i read up about it i found everything about the scene extremely interesting and appealing, so i went to my first party and the pieces just fit - i'm sure it was like this for a lot of demosceners. you have to remember though that in the 90s, computer stuff was a lot easier to mesmerize, and especially subcultural stuff was just raising its head, everyone was easier to pull in because we werent up the ass in "interesting stuff" (=youtube).
if someone wants to become a demoscener, they will, regardless of how much shit they get for their first demo, or even if they don't make demos, but just visit parties often - so many non-sceners at breakpoint went "shit, i gotta make stuff next time, this is amazing". the same goes the other way around - you cant force artists to become demosceners even if they're good enough: i've seen many graphics artists and musicians get involved, hell, even make something for a demo, but just splintered away because they weren't necessary interested in either the "demo" or the "scene".
to put it short: demoscene is destiny.
Quote:
how would they find out about the demoscene, and why would they find it cool enough so they'd want to contribute?
i think many are already aware of the demoscene, they are just not interested in producing idependent/non-interactive work. as keops said, what can be done by a single individual or small group of demosceners today is nowhere near as impressive or cool as stuff produced by multimillion dollar game companies.
i still find the demoscene and demos impressive because (in many cases) they are produced by a single coder, musician and maybe a graphics artist. 3 people, working in their limited spare time for no reward and simply for fun. that is the magic most will not find impressive or "cool" because they will imediately compare demos to what is produced commercially.
so i don't think there is much hope of attracting many of the youngsters you see on gamedev forums and who are mesmerized by the glamour of the games industry. i guess you might hook the odd one, if you're lucky. but is it worth the effort? i think those that would be interested will find the demoscene by themselves.
Quote:
to put it short: demoscene is destiny.
just about sums it up nicely :)
A bit of my experience:
As smash said, people in gamedev now opengl, what a matrix is and don't have problems downloading and linking with bass. Nehe tutorials are a joke already to them and they are more than technically capable of democoding. What they are missing is the trickery for being able to do 4k stuff, the taste to do something else than a gun in the foreground and a island with palms in the background, the motivation to make small finalized products (like demos) instead of never-ending uber-engines, the competition factor, some other references/goals than games, etc. Many of them are hungry for new things, something outside the two or three options they are given today (make a physics based 2d game, making a terrain+gun engine, making a planetary engine), they are really glad to see other possibilities like the demoscene.
In fact when I upload my stuff to gamedev and say few words about the demo party it was presented on, even post pouet links to the other entries or to good demos in general -but never to my own, funny thing-, and to my website for technical details, then I start getting two mails a day for a week or two. People usually say thx for the post/website/info/inspiration, and many of them say "I didn't know the demoscene, looks like it's super cool, I will try to make a 4k demo too".
So I send them a mail back pointing here so they don't spend time on the framework setup, and I give them the link to in4k. Few times I tell them about pouet.net (!??!?!!), link to some cool demos and give further references to breakpoint and assembly. Some promised to see me in those parties, a few sent me screenshots of their experiments on raymarching or whatever, others simply dissapeared forever and never returned any mail after the second.
Also, when giving a lecture at a university or conference or whatever I always try to explain my work from the point of view of the demoscene (as that's so far the only place where I have done CG anyway), and usually say few words ensuring I mention "party, competition, art and challenge". Usually I use the intros/demos when speaking on the state of the art instead of pointing to papers. After the speech many come to ask about "that demoscene thing" and not to discuss about techniques. Others come and tell me that "yeah, I heard about the demoscene few times already, I didn't know it had progress so much lately".
Everything sounds marvelous right? People know already about the demoscene, I tell you, and anyways it's always possible to attract more as we have so successfully done so far (see digital kulture, scene.org, the us trip of gargaj+gloom+steeler, the realtime generation of gina+division in austria, the demo section of ps in animatu, the demo compo of bitfilm festival, the spanish escena.org portal, the incursions in gamedev by some sceners, the .kkrieger phenomena, tons of indivudual talks about demoscene in our jobs, universities, local culture centers, and countless websites). We can of course improve this, but I think they already know what demoscene is out there. At least the ones who should know, usually know.
The big problem is, my big problem at least, is the follow up. Once we seduce them with these amazing compression techniques, these super nice looking pieces of art, these stories about mysterius competitions and parties, our attitude of continuous improvement and challenge, this complex social organization and meritocracy, then what should we do next? Why do I fail? Is it that they see too difficult/elitist? Then I failed to communicate how demoscene is in reality. Is it that they don't have a centralized place to go for help? What is it? At which point during their demoscene adventure do they get demo-tivated?
As smash said, people in gamedev now opengl, what a matrix is and don't have problems downloading and linking with bass. Nehe tutorials are a joke already to them and they are more than technically capable of democoding. What they are missing is the trickery for being able to do 4k stuff, the taste to do something else than a gun in the foreground and a island with palms in the background, the motivation to make small finalized products (like demos) instead of never-ending uber-engines, the competition factor, some other references/goals than games, etc. Many of them are hungry for new things, something outside the two or three options they are given today (make a physics based 2d game, making a terrain+gun engine, making a planetary engine), they are really glad to see other possibilities like the demoscene.
In fact when I upload my stuff to gamedev and say few words about the demo party it was presented on, even post pouet links to the other entries or to good demos in general -but never to my own, funny thing-, and to my website for technical details, then I start getting two mails a day for a week or two. People usually say thx for the post/website/info/inspiration, and many of them say "I didn't know the demoscene, looks like it's super cool, I will try to make a 4k demo too".
So I send them a mail back pointing here so they don't spend time on the framework setup, and I give them the link to in4k. Few times I tell them about pouet.net (!??!?!!), link to some cool demos and give further references to breakpoint and assembly. Some promised to see me in those parties, a few sent me screenshots of their experiments on raymarching or whatever, others simply dissapeared forever and never returned any mail after the second.
Also, when giving a lecture at a university or conference or whatever I always try to explain my work from the point of view of the demoscene (as that's so far the only place where I have done CG anyway), and usually say few words ensuring I mention "party, competition, art and challenge". Usually I use the intros/demos when speaking on the state of the art instead of pointing to papers. After the speech many come to ask about "that demoscene thing" and not to discuss about techniques. Others come and tell me that "yeah, I heard about the demoscene few times already, I didn't know it had progress so much lately".
Everything sounds marvelous right? People know already about the demoscene, I tell you, and anyways it's always possible to attract more as we have so successfully done so far (see digital kulture, scene.org, the us trip of gargaj+gloom+steeler, the realtime generation of gina+division in austria, the demo section of ps in animatu, the demo compo of bitfilm festival, the spanish escena.org portal, the incursions in gamedev by some sceners, the .kkrieger phenomena, tons of indivudual talks about demoscene in our jobs, universities, local culture centers, and countless websites). We can of course improve this, but I think they already know what demoscene is out there. At least the ones who should know, usually know.
The big problem is, my big problem at least, is the follow up. Once we seduce them with these amazing compression techniques, these super nice looking pieces of art, these stories about mysterius competitions and parties, our attitude of continuous improvement and challenge, this complex social organization and meritocracy, then what should we do next? Why do I fail? Is it that they see too difficult/elitist? Then I failed to communicate how demoscene is in reality. Is it that they don't have a centralized place to go for help? What is it? At which point during their demoscene adventure do they get demo-tivated?
aps, perhaps gargaj answered it already...
The intersection of people interested in tech nerddom and arty film & animation stuff is certainly not very big to begin with.
the problem with all demoscene outreach is that it's always subjective. iq's post would suggest that the main point of the demoscene to him (or at least the main point he wants to bring across to the targets of the outreach) is sizecoding. in fact in most of the cases i can think of where a demoscene production has been recognized by a non-scener audience, it's been about sizecoding (e.g. kkrieger and elevated). this is all good and well for coders interested in the "tech nerddom", but the artists are hardly impressed. personally i'm more interested in seeing advances in the design and direction of demos without arbitrary size limits. i'm probably in the minority though.
I'm as much a demo-consumer as intro-consumer in fact.
But it's true that tech-nerds (me included, and gamedev users) are impressed but size and visual quality more than with design or direction. Yep. Hopefully we would like to attract tech-nerds too and convert them, we can educate them with our values of beauty and depth or whatever. A demoscener can come from anywhere, tech-nerds included. ps and other people more in contact not with tech-nerds but with artyfarties or designerds can perhaps relate their experience.
What about the music-geek?
But it's true that tech-nerds (me included, and gamedev users) are impressed but size and visual quality more than with design or direction. Yep. Hopefully we would like to attract tech-nerds too and convert them, we can educate them with our values of beauty and depth or whatever. A demoscener can come from anywhere, tech-nerds included. ps and other people more in contact not with tech-nerds but with artyfarties or designerds can perhaps relate their experience.
What about the music-geek?
Music and film geeks have their own distinct subculture(s) and probably only a passing interesting in all things demoscene.
Anyway, I do agree with reed that the people doing outreach should mention more often, that it's not _only_ about (size-)coding. In fact, the majority of sceners are non-coders. Often enough, there seems to be the misconception that it's only about doing "flashy realtime visuals in x bytes". So, mention wild demos, show the hbc stuff, some funny & well made (the few we have) videos, show some gfx and play some music too. And if you really must, some neat 96k games as well. :)
Gargaj is an idiot
Real outreach would maybe happen the day a demo changes the world
Knos: well, it depends on how you define the scope of "change", really. In a million small ways, demos (and the demoscene) has indeed changed the world. Not that this should be a goal in it self to "change the world" (in the traditional sense), but yeah, I believe the demoscene has changed enough destinies to make itself significant as a power of inspiration and change to quite a few people.
What rtype and gloom said x 10000000.
i appreciate the cheesy rhetoric, but the whole point is how to make it significant to NEW people ;)
