R.I.P. Karlheinz Stockhausen
category: general [glöplog]
Nutman, so basically what you're saying is "it doesn't matter how thought out and masterful a composition is if it doesn't appeal to an idiot".
Well, uh... nah, I won't reply. Seriously.
Well, uh... nah, I won't reply. Seriously.
kb: but would you seriously call it masterful, if it didn't adhere to the basic rules of music?
I wouldn't.
It's like those kids inventing their own language. It's sweet and all, but it has no real value for anybody except for their immediate family.
No, what I CAN and DO agree on is the mastery of the tricks and all the hoops Stockhausen had to jump through in order to create those ethereal sounds. That's where I think the real talent lies.
Seriously, watch that video with the girl performing a Stockhausen tune and then tell me honestly, if this is something you'd be listening to just a fraction as often, as you listen to "normal" music. No, music SHOULD appeal to the...eh, fuck. I forgot the name of the brain that sets these chemicals free when listening to music that really moves you...the hippothalamus, perhaps? Ah, nevermind. I just think that Stockhausen was appealing to a VERY narrow audience (which is fine by me), but when he's presented to a larger audience, who don't have a clue what he's all about, and some spectators think it does not sound good, then who are we to say that they're WRONG?
I wouldn't.
It's like those kids inventing their own language. It's sweet and all, but it has no real value for anybody except for their immediate family.
No, what I CAN and DO agree on is the mastery of the tricks and all the hoops Stockhausen had to jump through in order to create those ethereal sounds. That's where I think the real talent lies.
Seriously, watch that video with the girl performing a Stockhausen tune and then tell me honestly, if this is something you'd be listening to just a fraction as often, as you listen to "normal" music. No, music SHOULD appeal to the...eh, fuck. I forgot the name of the brain that sets these chemicals free when listening to music that really moves you...the hippothalamus, perhaps? Ah, nevermind. I just think that Stockhausen was appealing to a VERY narrow audience (which is fine by me), but when he's presented to a larger audience, who don't have a clue what he's all about, and some spectators think it does not sound good, then who are we to say that they're WRONG?
And, seriously....don't call people idiots, just because they don't have the same opinion.
perhaps if the idiots wouldnt be downright insulting and/or obviously clueless in the way they present their opinion they wouldnt be labelled as idiots.
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id·i·ot /ˈɪdiət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[id-ee-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an utterly foolish or senseless person.
2. Psychology. a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.
idiot
c.1300, "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning," from O.Fr. idiote "uneducated or ignorant person," from L. idiota "ordinary person, layman," in L.L. "uneducated or ignorant person," from Gk. idiotes "layman, person lacking professional skill," lit. "private person," used patronizingly for "ignorant person," from idios "one's own"
I don't think it's an idiot's argument to state something like "This sound like something children could do" or "I don't think this is good".
It's called "a personal opinion" and the joke's on those who ridicule others for even having one. I've read the thread again, just to be sure, and I see absolutely nothing in it that would adhere to the definition of the word "idiot" that you posted just before.
Seriously, Buttler is just trying to present his opinion (and then he, rightfully, tries to defend it) and he's apparently an idiot for doing so?
Who's the real idiot?
It's called "a personal opinion" and the joke's on those who ridicule others for even having one. I've read the thread again, just to be sure, and I see absolutely nothing in it that would adhere to the definition of the word "idiot" that you posted just before.
Seriously, Buttler is just trying to present his opinion (and then he, rightfully, tries to defend it) and he's apparently an idiot for doing so?
Who's the real idiot?
Thanks Nutman. Glad to see someone is seeing things objectively and putting forward some constructive and relevant views.
aparently you and buttler, for still not getting the point that you shouldnt opinate about any sort of art without having bothered to unbiasedly attempt to appreciate, understand and contextualize it.
even failing to aknowledge the importance of assimilating experimental concepts and its derived influences to the evolution of any art movement pretty much narrows you down to idiots whose work will probably never be worth listening by anyone who already listened to your influences.
congrats on wasting years of your life developing instrument playing technical skills that will never create anything of any significant value. its pretty amazing how you can grow in other things for so long periods of time now and still be so narrowminded and ego-absorbed in what really matters to push your craft forward, big respect.
even failing to aknowledge the importance of assimilating experimental concepts and its derived influences to the evolution of any art movement pretty much narrows you down to idiots whose work will probably never be worth listening by anyone who already listened to your influences.
congrats on wasting years of your life developing instrument playing technical skills that will never create anything of any significant value. its pretty amazing how you can grow in other things for so long periods of time now and still be so narrowminded and ego-absorbed in what really matters to push your craft forward, big respect.
It's funny that i was using the term "idiot" in the most abstract an general form possible, and you two still feel offended btw ;)
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congrats on wasting years of your life developing instrument playing technical skills that will never create anything of any significant value.
In YOUR opinion. I have plenty of people who like my music and I also get paid to make it.
Didn't really understand the rest of your post.
Figures.
Bah, opinions. Even a 5 years old child has one!
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aparently you and buttler, for still not getting the point that you shouldnt opinate about any sort of art without having bothered to unbiasedly attempt to appreciate, understand and contextualize it.
See, I spent the last couple of days trying to REALLY understand what Stockhausen was all about, but I still don't REALLY understand where he was going. He was fascinated by the variety of sounds and the interacting of different sounds, but it seems like that was all. He speaks of harmonies here and there, but it's more to create a specific sound than to actually create and entire piece that sounds like what most commonly is known as music. But Stockhausen was not the point here. The point was to assist Buttler in the somewhat idiotic bashing that started uprising here. Granted, he DID not start his comments in a subtle and especially respectful way, but when he started acting up, you guys seemed to STILL focus on what he started out by saying, instead of looking at the arguments that he presented later on. The same thing happened to me in another R.I.P. thread and it's just makes me go into the red, because it's like punching into the air.
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even failing to aknowledge the importance of assimilating experimental concepts and its derived influences to the evolution of any art movement pretty much narrows you down to idiots whose work will probably never be worth listening by anyone who already listened to your influences.
You know, I wanted to say something like "Yeah, Stockhausen really had LOTS of fans" (said in a very ironic way), but you know I was going to say that, probably.
And besides, who are you to say that I pretty much exactly like my influences? For all you know, I COULD have been trying to make something that I find special - I COULD have been trying to do something that would sound like me, while not bothering that it sounds like dozens of other musicians.
You know, you don't HAVE to be extreme to be different.
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congrats on wasting years of your life developing instrument playing technical skills that will never create anything of any significant value. its pretty amazing how you can grow in other things for so long periods of time now and still be so narrowminded and ego-absorbed in what really matters to push your craft forward, big respect.
I seriously don't know what the point is, but why these attacks on me, for just trying to look objectively at the discussion and finding people attacking Buttler with more than waht's called for? Besides, do you know what it takes to push my craft forward? Care to elaborate on that? Where is music in, say, 10 years from now? Will we all go oldschool, or will new genres be developed? And what will they most likely be called?
Seriously, ps. Can't you just acknowledge that some of the replies to Buttler were really uncalled for and try to look at what he's all about here?
historic and artistic value != popular and monetary value
you obviously do music for the later, i would much rather achieve the former.
you obviously do music for the later, i would much rather achieve the former.
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"Yeah, Stockhausen really had LOTS of fans"
haaaaaaaa he did, suckers! him and john cage are the poster boys of experimental music, taught in secondary level music classes, appropriated in cult films (e.g. Jean-Jacques Beineix's 'Diva'). this is the whole reason you started posting and a whole bunch of musicians were like WHAT. its like turning up and saying, like, aerosmith can't be such a big deal because you've never heard of them, and what the fuck, the Joey guy has a massive mouth what the hell is that about, if i wanted to see a big mouth i'd go watch whales at seaworld lol haha sort it out aerosmith. as if you ever sold millions of records like britney spears did boo hoo gripe gripe all that exists in the world is what i say exists and nothing else is allowed by order of ME and my ENCYCLOPEDIA of everything that is, was and shall be music
"and the beatles, what the hell's that about? all i need to do is get a girl pregnant, teach my kids a few triads and let them loose on a mellotron with a tape recorder. i mean, BEATLES SORT IT OUT, you bunch of weirdos. strawberry fields forever?! all i need to do is get a girl pregnant and shoot some LSD up her womb, you bunch of psychedelic shroom whores"
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I spent the last couple of days trying to REALLY understand what Stockhausen was all about, but I still don't REALLY understand where he was going.
if you dont really understand then dont talk about it, i can garantee you no one will call you an insulting idiot then.
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The same thing happened to me in another R.I.P. thread and it's just makes me go into the red, because it's like punching into the air.
aparently you didnt learn much from that experience either.
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And besides, who are you to say that I pretty much exactly like my influences?
You know, you don't HAVE to be extreme to be different.
you're different and yet, you're just the same.
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Besides, do you know what it takes to push my craft forward?
i know that we who keeps doing the same thing doesnt evolve, thats enough for me to conclude that everyone who does a craft should keep experimenting. if you're too stubborn to the point of pretending not to get that argument thats your problem. have fun doing bukkakke sessions for your fans for the rest of your life. i rather discover interesting music.
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Seriously, ps. Can't you just acknowledge that some of the replies to Buttler were really uncalled for and try to look at what he's all about here?
i dont even particularly like stockhausen or am decently acquainted with his full discography. it's just a matter of respect for the mans efforts to push things forward and hopefully making you pseudo-musicians realize it's strong importance in the very art you supposedly enjoy creating. i seem to have failed in that aspect, but i'll go do something else now, i don't see how i can reach someone who reads the same thing 5 to 10 times from different people who do the same craft and still manage to fail aknowledging the obvious, and further insist that everyone else is wrong and insulting. my condolences to your family and friends in that aspect.
I'm kind of repeating myself here (=argument about Stockhausen being an influental composer, no matter if you like or "understand" his music or not), but I was watching this Frank Zappa documentary, and a familiar name popped up after Ian Underwood discussed how Zappa didn't care much for classical music. (2:17->)
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historic and artistic value != popular and monetary value
you obviously do music for the later, i would much rather achieve the former.
Oh, how you know me. Yes, I make millions and live in Hollywood Hills.
Either that, or I just make music that I find interesting and get happy whenever I create something I'd never have thought I'd be able to pull off.
You choose.
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haaaaaaaa he did, suckers! him and john cage are the poster boys of experimental music, taught in secondary level music classes, appropriated in cult films (e.g. Jean-Jacques Beineix's 'Diva'). this is the whole reason you started posting and a whole bunch of musicians were like WHAT.
forestcre: I don't neglect the fact that Stockhausen was a genius at something, but that's not the point here - neither is the fact that I think music has to adhere to some basic rules, at least until those rules have been re-written and/or expanded. No, my goal was to try to stand up a bit for Buttler, since I (almost the only one?) looked like the only one who tried to understand what he was saying. It just looked like people didn't look at his arguments that followed his more or less clumsy opening post.
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Either that, or I just make music that I find interesting and get happy whenever I create something I'd never have thought I'd be able to pull off.
considering for how many years you been doing music for thats just pathetic then, give me your technical skills and go watch tv instead.
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Quote:I spent the last couple of days trying to REALLY understand what Stockhausen was all about, but I still don't REALLY understand where he was going.
if you dont really understand then dont talk about it, i can garantee you no one will call you an insulting idiot then.
Your point is about 50% valid to me, but the right to have an opinion on something is still a very reasonable argument - especially with music, since it's pretty easy to spend a couple of hours listening and then deciding what you think of it. I did just that. I gave it a shot and read about his ideas and his work, and I, as stated before, think he was something special in the field of "playing around" (in lack of a more fitting description) with musical theories and sounds, but I still don't think that he produced something that was truly unique. I've said it before, but let's say it again, just for sports: It sounds just too damn random. I'm pretty most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference of a Stockhausen piece (if they never heard him before) and me sitting here hitting random notes on my keyboard, at various intervals. And THAT'S what MY music is to me - I want it to be something that not just anybody can recreate (or easily try to mimic), so if you REALLY want to know where I'm pushing my craft, that would be a pretty good direction to be looking.
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aparently you didnt learn much from that experience either.
Well, I learned that if you set off on the wrong foot, people will most likely neglect all your following arguments, regardless how valid they may be.
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i know that we who keeps doing the same thing doesnt evolve, thats enough for me to conclude that everyone who does a craft should keep experimenting
Oh, and that's not what I'm doing? Do you have a webcam hidden in my room somewhere, so you're able to tell that I don't explore new ways of composing, constantly improving my skills and always looking to expand my capabilities? I guess I must be the same musician today that I was when I picked up a pair of drumsticks for the first time 20 years ago.
The rest of your mail was just too insulting and demeaning for me to even think of commenting it. What is your problem with me?
to some ppl music is only "music" if it triggers their base primeival sense of "beat" and "rythm", something which they can dance to around a camp-fire to, with spears in their hands chanting "ugah boogah!!" They only derive meaning from things if they involve some form of physical worldly ritual. In that respect, they are like children (no offense, just opinion) and find abstract ideas difficult to grasp.
Maybe we should put an end to this discussion by labeling his works as "experimental sound" and he himself as a "sound engineer" or something. i'm pretty sure he wouldnt have a problem with that. (very open mind and all that) Just for the sake of those who take everything in life literally and need clear-cut definitions and categories in order to make it through their day.
Maybe we should put an end to this discussion by labeling his works as "experimental sound" and he himself as a "sound engineer" or something. i'm pretty sure he wouldnt have a problem with that. (very open mind and all that) Just for the sake of those who take everything in life literally and need clear-cut definitions and categories in order to make it through their day.
When you're talking about banging randomly on a piano, it shows you really haven't listened much of his output, actually. For example there's none of that stuff in my (modest) collection^1 of works by Stockhausen.. It was just one part of his life, when he was working with notorious serialists like Schoenberg or Boulez. (I have a couple of pointillist piano pieces from Boulez who are a bit hard to get into.. I think I'd really dig it a lot more in a concert hall)
Not really the type of music you can get into via any ADD-riddled youtube practice. It's made for concert hall's first, records second.
^1 For example some quite funny vocal based music: Stimmung.
Not really the type of music you can get into via any ADD-riddled youtube practice. It's made for concert hall's first, records second.
^1 For example some quite funny vocal based music: Stimmung.
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Maybe we should put an end to this discussion by labeling his works as "experimental sound" and he himself as a "sound engineer" or something. i'm pretty sure he wouldnt have a problem with that.
Amitari: Word. On that note (pun intended) I was thinking how cool it would have been attending one of his classes - if you did not walk away filled with inspiration, you must have been sleeping. I mean, in this video he appears reeeally dull and mindnumbing, but after the video I really felt intrigued and inspired. I would probably not produce what he did, but I'd feel inspired to do something that felt like an experiment to me - and that's good enough, I think.
Knos: Boulez and Schönberg - thanks. I will look into those. If anything, this thread has awakened my looking for music unknown to me, to re-ignite my spark, so to say. The personal attacks set aside, I think this was one of the more giving threads (to me, at least) on Pouet, and proves that trolling can be fought, if we all give it a try. And try not to see a troll behind every answer that at the first (or second, third, etc.) look doesn't make any sense to us.
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The rest of your mail was just too insulting and demeaning for me to even think of commenting it. What is your problem with me?
the fact that you can hear but refuse to listen, read the words and fail to assimilate the sentence into an understanding. it annoys me when people rather stay in their shrine of self-importance neglecting that a world outside their bubbled ego is actually there for them to explore and comprehend.
you're obviously not a retard, so why do you insist in locking yourself up in a bubble of clearly unfundamented biased self-rightous pseudo-important opinions instead of educating yourself in the matters that are being discussed prior to invoking your so highly praised right to an opinion. it's common courtesy in a civilized discussion and not that much to ask for in a thread created to honor someones life work.