pouët.net

hereby i would like to express my sincerest apologies towards the god of outreach, for he truely is the only one who knows how to communicate with 'outsiders'.

*sigh* So, constructive critisism isn't allowed. Noted.

I read somewhere their periods attract bears. Bears can smell the menstruation. :/

i wonder if they smell latte machiato too

Hmm... "menstruation"... I didn't exactly needed that word right now Okkie ;)

Havoc: Seriously - your attitude annoys me on several levels. First off the most obvious one: Sure, I get that being criticised for something you've done feels bad. TRUST ME, I get that. Secondly; it's okay when someone else does it, but when it comes from me it suddenly spawns an acid response? Why?

I like this initiative, I really really do, but as it stands the execution is flawed. It _has_ to be okay to point that out, right? Otherwise, we're no better than Linux distro-wars twats, and that is surely not something anyone wants. All me, monroe and skrebbel (plus the silent bystanders) are saying is that perhaps a more modern design would fit in with the message you're actually trying to convey.

What's wrong with saying so? Should we just stand there and applaud something we know will fail? What's the point of that? Now grow up a bit and let's have a constructive discussion about this, because I'm SURE there are lots of people willing to help with this project, present company included. :)

it probably should be considered that even though Gloom is not "the only one", he nevertheless has a lot of experience in outreach, so I, for my part, would like to hear this feedback.

Axel : I full agree with Gloom about the top BF menu that doesn't belong here and that is confusing. Same for the layout, but that's only personal taste.

Good luck with it, looking forward to see what you, Evilpaul and the others come up with :)

aspects regarding layout, site design etc shouldn't be answered by me because I wasn't involved with that really.

thanks for the feedback - constructive, negative, positive.. it's all welcome. we are most likely going to be making incremental changes at the moment rather than redesigning the whole site though, and any changes will take a few days to filter through because a) we're all quite busy, and b) asm starts today! ;)

but.. getting the top bar removed is very high on my list of things to do ;)

another tip, look at quite-failed similar attempts such as www.demoscene.info and learn.

yup. we've looked at demoscene.info and similar sites. hopefully we've learned. time will tell i guess!

gloom, first of all,

afaik you haven't specifically criticized any of my work, so i'll disregard this statement for the moment. (if you did, please do feel free to inform me of any improvements you suggest for involved or future prod(s).)

as for the acid responses, it seems to me we both know how to play pong. question is, do we want to go for a new highscore?

concerning the website, it all depends on the target audience i guess. your definition of the target audience appears to be the "hip & trendy" mainstream audience, which is indeed the biggest potential audience out there. then again, it could be argued that there's a much higher relative chance to attract new people to the scene from less mainstream audiences. for example, we have been promoting the demoscene in the micromusic community for some time now, with almost nothing but positive response, and even a few handfulls of (half-)converts doing releases or participating in demoscene groups as a result. all that without a flashy website, even worse: without any outreach website whatsoever, just plain and simple grassroots activism.

i'm not saying that our way is THE way, or that your method is less or more effective, or that what bitfellas is trying to do is fantastic/crap, or anything like that. i think we all have to concentrate on doing what we do best. if you say a flashy website is needed to convince your target audience, i'll take your word for it without a second of doubt. what i am doubting strongly, though, is whether the bitfellas site should be aiming for the same target audience. from what i know, they're oldschool sceners in a slightly higher average age bracket, so they might prefer marketing towards an audience they are more familiar with, which might require a different website design (not necessarily the current one). then again, they might also wish to target 13year old girls, in which case i don't recommend the current design at all, but a lot of pink and ponies instead. for the siggraph crowd, a more minimalistic/scientific approach may be appropriate. point is, the bitfellas guys need to decide for themselves what their strategy is, not simply copy or adapt to someone else's ideas.

i guess most of this remains speculation for the non-involved until the first content is added, so i'm looking forward to that day. :)

Good to listen, guys, please keep up the nice mood :) And thanks for mentioning DVLive and intromission, very much appreciated :_)

Axel & Okkie : cool radio show btw :)

oh yeah.. back on topic... great radio show. the bit about slengpung had me laughing out loud at work ;D

thanks for the kind feedbacks. I'm actually quite surprised. I expected that we would be publicly ridiculed. :)

Heh, ditto. The whole thing was pretty much improv and we didn't even have a proper plan :D

damn, pressure is on now!

I agree with monroe.

/me looks on his back and check if he has delayed in a project and gets read to get a back stab too :P

Havoc: Dude, you're the one who opened with "put a sock in it, will ya?", so I'd be hard pressed to admit that I'm the one playing pong here. :) I admit I have misunderstood two things though: firstly - I thought you were involved in the creation of the site, and secondly: I was under the impression that we put the same meaning to the word "outreach" when clearly we don't, and that's okay.

Also; I don't know where you get the idea that I'm only interested in trying to reach the "hip and trendy audience" (whatever that is), but I can assure you that you are mistaken. When I do outreach, I'm trying to get people interested in the scene. Period. It doesn't matter where they come from. This is why having a more neutral landingpage for newcomers is so vitally important. You are right in that different audiences might appreciate a different approach to information serving, but you're wrong in assuming that a specialized page is needed in each case.

Google works for everyone. Facebook works for everyone. There are thousands of examples of web-pages created to meet the demand and expectations of a broad number of people. I also find it strange that you seem to think there is only the one or the other - nobody is talking about "a flashy website" for "the hip and trendy" OR "a retro-looking site for micromusic fans". Why can't it just be a normal, easy to read and easy to understand website? There are quite a few design conventions out there, and they have become so because they work. You are free to reinvent the wheel if you wish, but I think that's a bad idea.

So; how about you lower your shoulders and allow people like monroe and trace (who KNOW what they are talking about) to give you guys some tips and tricks without asking them to shut the fuck up the moment they try to help? I know I would.

i agree that google/facebook are good examples, in that respect the current layout of the website is way too bombastic/technical. take e.g. google, it is just a white page with goofy logo and no bullshit text/buttons. this outreach page already has space invaders, technical shizzle references and some metallic toolbar at the top that clearly would scare 13yo girls who love pink and ponies away.

next to that, i also agree with the 'very talented' argument, let's leave that judgement to these new people themselves whether we're talented or not. it's now just seems arrogant and boasting :)

..and another thing; given that most people (I assume) would come to the outreach page after having been shown some demos, there is the element of consistency to think about as well. They have more than likely seen "Lifeforce" or "Debris" or one of IQs wonderful 4k intros etc, and if they are told to "go HERE to learn more and to see more demos", they will immediately become confused and wonder if they have come to the wrong place. Marketing, marketing, marketing. :)

if you are trying to reach as many people as possible, you are aiming for the mainstream aka hip&trendy aka the big audience aka otto normalverbraucher aka starbucks clientele. nothing to get offended about except semantics, really.

i explicitly stated that we did not make any website whatsoever to support our "outreach"(what's in a name..) efforts in (just as an example) the micromusic scene.

yeah, i'm sorry, monroe's comment was extremely contructive now that i re-read it. i wonder how on earth i missed all those useful hints and tips he is giving the first time round. also, i wonder how it ever got into my head to assume that 4 years of university and almost a decade in the field would lead me to any insights regarding graphics design whatsoever. tomorrow i will tell my boss he should fire me, so i can more properly concentrate on lowering my shoulders to higher beings.

well, you are 2m tall, havoc.. your shoulders are damn high :D