Open source cooperative demoscene
category: general [glöplog]
so fucking what, the technical programming of music, is it more artistic than coding and checking your code on the fly, experimenting and finding new ways? or maybe its pixeling as a process more artistic just because you have image in your head you want to realize but isnt it the same with code? the question i'd like to ask is ::> are u coder?
i mean, it doesnt matter what is art and whats not because thats matter of interpretation but i dont think coding shouldnt be considered less arty than composing and painting. perhaps its all about your approach..
Writing can be art: Poetry, novels, etc..
Writing can be pure technical ability: Instruction manuals, legal documents, etc..
Coding can be art: Demos, games, etc..
Coding can be pure technical ability: Spreadsheets, word processors, etc..
But that doesn't necessarily mean creativity isn't required for purely technical stuff.
My, my... It's all so confusing.
Writing can be pure technical ability: Instruction manuals, legal documents, etc..
Coding can be art: Demos, games, etc..
Coding can be pure technical ability: Spreadsheets, word processors, etc..
But that doesn't necessarily mean creativity isn't required for purely technical stuff.
My, my... It's all so confusing.
raver, yes, mainly coder. And, I can say, that I "love" to code and try extrange things... I'm mostly oldschool, software renderer, I use to work with raytracing and voxels, and now I've started with some radiosity (for voxels, and not in real time). But, my coding, is just implement algorithms that exists... well, mine is only a pseudo-gaussian blur effect with a very similar to gaussian curve, very fast for real time, but... anyway a crap. So, if it is supposed to be art, what I only do is to optimize in speed things... if I "compose" any algorithm, it is near sure that it was implemented before. I consider mixing two or more effects to get a new one, even if it is done by code it is just design, not coding. So, the rest of coding is optimizing... and optimizing for me is not an art at all. And even if I found a new and creative effect... where is the art?
hidding deep under the ground in the basement of deserted steel factory
I've seen many paintings of flowers, ships, landscapes, etc.
[quote]
or you could have your program shared for free (hippy mentality) in the same way that some individuals do (mIRC, Kazaa, etc...) in a community fashion, or a movement
[/quoute]
33: i don't want to ruin your fun, but mIRC is a nag-free 30 day shareware...
Anyways I believe in coding as an artform. I love to code, even if it does no good, a well done source - well structured, effective, unlike the pretty examples 216 gave us (well i think all of us could give a long list of the alikes :( ) - is good to look at, - okay sure i'm a pervert, but i like well-formed code.
It's something like calligraphy. Everyone can write, but only a few can do it artistically. This is the same with coding. While all those lamers - who call themselves "engineers","developers",my-dick-knows-what- producing code like 216 showed us, there will be artists (not me, i always fuck it up...) and coding will be an art. for me.
FooLman/the.pervert.code.fetish.man
or you could have your program shared for free (hippy mentality) in the same way that some individuals do (mIRC, Kazaa, etc...) in a community fashion, or a movement
[/quoute]
33: i don't want to ruin your fun, but mIRC is a nag-free 30 day shareware...
Anyways I believe in coding as an artform. I love to code, even if it does no good, a well done source - well structured, effective, unlike the pretty examples 216 gave us (well i think all of us could give a long list of the alikes :( ) - is good to look at, - okay sure i'm a pervert, but i like well-formed code.
It's something like calligraphy. Everyone can write, but only a few can do it artistically. This is the same with coding. While all those lamers - who call themselves "engineers","developers",my-dick-knows-what- producing code like 216 showed us, there will be artists (not me, i always fuck it up...) and coding will be an art. for me.
FooLman/the.pervert.code.fetish.man
blablabla.
beginners.
beginners.
Rasmus: My world is cheerfull only at few moments, but not today :(
texel: I am an artist. I do gfx, I paint using oil-colors, and I code demos (though I am not trying to claim madskills on any of the fields). I feel that I can express myself just as well through code.
Stroking a paintbrush over a canvas isn't by itself art, but what you DO with the techniques you know who is. It's the same thing with democoding. When i declare an unsigned int, ofcourse it's not art. But if I express myself visually through code, I consider it to be a kind of art.
Stroking a paintbrush over a canvas isn't by itself art, but what you DO with the techniques you know who is. It's the same thing with democoding. When i declare an unsigned int, ofcourse it's not art. But if I express myself visually through code, I consider it to be a kind of art.
kusma, foolman, scali and so on:
you obviously don't know the difference
between the following words:
* Art
* Craft
* Sports
All of you (and most other people in the scene, especially stupid-coders-with-no-horizon-except-the-scene-and-writing-code)
constantly mix these categories, ignorant of the differences between them.
Most of you thinks it's really important that a demo:
* Shows some kind of skill
Right. That means your idea of a demo is pretty close to the Craft/Sports section.
(Since both of these categories rely heavily on showing off some kind of a skill)
Ok. If you however see demos more as a PERSONAL EXPRESSION that doesn't necessarily have have to show off ANY skill whatsoever, well then your idea of a demo comes pretty close to art.
That's been a pretty common definition for art for the last hundred years or so. You know that painting that's basically just a red square on a white background (very famous)?
Well, that's sort of what I'm talking about, taken to the extreme. It's supposed to be intrepreted as a personal expression, not as some stupid
skill-portfolio showing off some what you can do (who CARES what you can do?
People care about what you have to say. And no, stupid eye-candy demos doesn't
say that much. Not emotionally. Not intellectually.)
That some types of personal expressions might require this and that skill is granted, but it doesn't matter much really.
So please... when you're talking about art, most of you really mean craft.
you obviously don't know the difference
between the following words:
* Art
* Craft
* Sports
All of you (and most other people in the scene, especially stupid-coders-with-no-horizon-except-the-scene-and-writing-code)
constantly mix these categories, ignorant of the differences between them.
Most of you thinks it's really important that a demo:
* Shows some kind of skill
Right. That means your idea of a demo is pretty close to the Craft/Sports section.
(Since both of these categories rely heavily on showing off some kind of a skill)
Ok. If you however see demos more as a PERSONAL EXPRESSION that doesn't necessarily have have to show off ANY skill whatsoever, well then your idea of a demo comes pretty close to art.
That's been a pretty common definition for art for the last hundred years or so. You know that painting that's basically just a red square on a white background (very famous)?
Well, that's sort of what I'm talking about, taken to the extreme. It's supposed to be intrepreted as a personal expression, not as some stupid
skill-portfolio showing off some what you can do (who CARES what you can do?
People care about what you have to say. And no, stupid eye-candy demos doesn't
say that much. Not emotionally. Not intellectually.)
That some types of personal expressions might require this and that skill is granted, but it doesn't matter much really.
So please... when you're talking about art, most of you really mean craft.
If you look up art on www.dictionary.com, you will find:
- High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
- Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
I think at least those two definitions can be applied to coding, therefore I say: democoding is (an) art.
Ofcourse coding is also a craft, and coders/demos are in competition, so there's some element of sport in it.
However, this does not rule out the art-option.
In fact, in a sense, art is a superlative of craft...
Think of Rembrandt (or other Dutch Masters), they were so good at what they did, that it is considered art. It's something that not everyone can do. It's something that not everyone can achieve by just training enough. And that's where art differs from a craft, if you ask me. And therefore coding is art.
- High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
- Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
I think at least those two definitions can be applied to coding, therefore I say: democoding is (an) art.
Ofcourse coding is also a craft, and coders/demos are in competition, so there's some element of sport in it.
However, this does not rule out the art-option.
In fact, in a sense, art is a superlative of craft...
Think of Rembrandt (or other Dutch Masters), they were so good at what they did, that it is considered art. It's something that not everyone can do. It's something that not everyone can achieve by just training enough. And that's where art differs from a craft, if you ask me. And therefore coding is art.
This is art. I'm expressing my contempt for this discussion.
yeah. heh.
great.
that was definitely the last time i'd try to take on a
discussion in the demoscene.
great.
that was definitely the last time i'd try to take on a
discussion in the demoscene.
Oh and by the way, Mr sofokles...
You may be a newbie in the scene... but in the old days it was ALL ABOUT what you can do.
Demos weren't 'art' until computers were fast enough.
They were just showing off the skills of their coders.
Graphics and music were just supporting the code.
It was ALL about the code.
Often there wasn't even a real concept or theme or anything that was binding the parts together.
And to many people, code is still a very important part in a demo. They don't like slow or ugly effects.
Code has just become less important in the age of 3d cards and 1+ GHz CPUs. Even less skilled coders can now make a demo. Which is not a good thing, really.
You may be a newbie in the scene... but in the old days it was ALL ABOUT what you can do.
Demos weren't 'art' until computers were fast enough.
They were just showing off the skills of their coders.
Graphics and music were just supporting the code.
It was ALL about the code.
Often there wasn't even a real concept or theme or anything that was binding the parts together.
And to many people, code is still a very important part in a demo. They don't like slow or ugly effects.
Code has just become less important in the age of 3d cards and 1+ GHz CPUs. Even less skilled coders can now make a demo. Which is not a good thing, really.
Oh, the joy of never ending (and ALWAYS pointless) art-or-not-discussions. :)
Ok, what's needed to create art:
a] talent+creativity
b] skill (gained by traning a] )
c] ideas/motivation/conception
Art without any talent/skill is trash.
Ok, what's needed to create art:
a] talent+creativity
b] skill (gained by traning a] )
c] ideas/motivation/conception
Art without any talent/skill is trash.
I suggest you all shut up and make some demos.
sofokles, excellent point. For example computer games today have way better code, music and graphics than demos, but I still wouldn't call them art...
Thom, you stole that red dot from TKB demos of 1995! ;)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=8169
This is art, even if the code is not good enough.
This is art, even if the code is not good enough.
sofokles: I DO know the difference between crafts and art, art is created as an expression of feelings, moods or similar. You, on the other hand, obviously don't know shit about art. You rant on with the attitude of a linux-hippie on crack. Obviously, you need some art-lessons before speaking on the matter.
Art is art is art is art.
About the original sense of this thread, I'm going to repeat my question, this time much more explicit and easy to understand:
I'm going to do a web for open sources/algorithms/gfxs, etc, all demoscene oriented, also tutorials, etc. At least, all my work and the best tutorials I found is going to be there. So, who are you would like to colaborate with me in this? My objetive is easy: create a good web for working in groups, get a database to learn and find about graphics algorithms and demoscene, let people optimize algorithms and codes, generate new effects/ideas/implementations. Also, translated at least into Spanish and English.
About the original sense of this thread, I'm going to repeat my question, this time much more explicit and easy to understand:
I'm going to do a web for open sources/algorithms/gfxs, etc, all demoscene oriented, also tutorials, etc. At least, all my work and the best tutorials I found is going to be there. So, who are you would like to colaborate with me in this? My objetive is easy: create a good web for working in groups, get a database to learn and find about graphics algorithms and demoscene, let people optimize algorithms and codes, generate new effects/ideas/implementations. Also, translated at least into Spanish and English.
note: I wanted to write "who of you", not "who are you"
Great idea man!
(and much better than this "i know art, you know shit" style discussion :) )
(and much better than this "i know art, you know shit" style discussion :) )
FooLman: "i know art, you know shit" <<< very fun! XDDDDDDD