Discussion: Usage of D3DX in 4k intros
category: general [glöplog]
I have no problem with anyone using D3DX as a DLL in a 4K. Also, not all of D3DX resides in the DLL; someone mentioned matrices -- those are all inline in the .H file except a few more complicated routines, so they are going to code bloat your 4K ;-).
Definately complain to directx@microsoft.com about these DLLs not being included in the standard end-user runtime though.
Definately complain to directx@microsoft.com about these DLLs not being included in the standard end-user runtime though.
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Does the money & all the gizmos won at recent parties with 4k intros that should have been disqualified be refunded ?
You really should attend some parties. Nearly no scener does it for the money. And those who do...
... enter it to The Gathering ... *cough* ...
m (whoever):
So we shouldn't use DLL's anyway, hmmm? ;)
That discussion doesn't belong here!
That's so pointless. we worked without that stuff, we worked with it, actually the stuff with OpenGL only looked better, but that's another thing. It's just about having some more options, because with that DLL you definitly could do stuff you couldn't do before.
So we shouldn't use DLL's anyway, hmmm? ;)
That discussion doesn't belong here!
That's so pointless. we worked without that stuff, we worked with it, actually the stuff with OpenGL only looked better, but that's another thing. It's just about having some more options, because with that DLL you definitly could do stuff you couldn't do before.
Pointless TG-bashing is like mocking the north american demoscene and it doesn't help us in this discussion. (Fun is not an argument.)
Las correctly noted that d3dx9_XX.dll was allowed at Breakpoint because back then it was believed to be included in the enduser runtime soon.
As this assumption was wrong, I'm personally also strongly against allowing the usage of it at BP06. But of course the ultimate decision on this will be done by the compo team.
As this assumption was wrong, I'm personally also strongly against allowing the usage of it at BP06. But of course the ultimate decision on this will be done by the compo team.
Madenmann: I stated a fact, prove it wrong if you wish.
external use of dll = not really 4k
a real 4k is a 4k without external file.
otherwise i make one file with a bunch of includes and put all my inclues in a fake dll.. it's stupid.
a real 4k is a 4k without external file.
otherwise i make one file with a bunch of includes and put all my inclues in a fake dll.. it's stupid.
r00t: But a fake-dll is not on the compo systems, the mentioned OpenGL/DirectX dlls were.
MadenMann: not if i manage to get them to run my "entry preview" first!
how about 700K sized 64Ks ?
las: It's not about using DLLs, it's about using DLLs that are not part of any scene-relevant standard software package such as "Windows", "DirectX", "Drivers" and the like.
This is not about "cheating" by using external libs, as everyone and their dog already does that. This is about not fucking being able to run a demo without some obscure download from where nobody would expect it.
This is not about "cheating" by using external libs, as everyone and their dog already does that. This is about not fucking being able to run a demo without some obscure download from where nobody would expect it.
it's also about visiting the clue shoppe
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PointlessTG-bashing is like mocking the north american demoscene
Yep... all too easy and justifiably so in either case.
kb: perhaps you noticed that i mentioned that before, else i wouldn't have started this discussion. I was just refering to m's comment...
I started this, because i want "clear" rules.
I started this, because i want "clear" rules.
<i>I started this, because i want "clear" rules.</i>
Yeah, and as soon as you found out that the direction of this thread was not where you wanted it to go, you started bitching *g*
Yeah, and as soon as you found out that the direction of this thread was not where you wanted it to go, you started bitching *g*
you are wrong kb (you started bitching! :D ) ;)
There are arguments for both sides, but it actually seems to be the right solution not to allow the usage of D3DX, because there are more negative then positive aspects. The compo orgas still have the last word, but yeah, it shouldn't be allowed (even if there are lots of nice things... :/)
(kb: i was kinda pissed at BP because the Top 2 were both using D3DX, our 100% OpenGL Intro became 3rd, without D3DX; There's no problem without that, there just should be "global" rules).
There are arguments for both sides, but it actually seems to be the right solution not to allow the usage of D3DX, because there are more negative then positive aspects. The compo orgas still have the last word, but yeah, it shouldn't be allowed (even if there are lots of nice things... :/)
(kb: i was kinda pissed at BP because the Top 2 were both using D3DX, our 100% OpenGL Intro became 3rd, without D3DX; There's no problem without that, there just should be "global" rules).
i think i should write a virus which spreads itself with a small (?) dll, which i'm gonna use in some 4k intro. _THATS_ what i call cheating ;)
actually i shouldnt have an opinion about d3dx since i dont know anything about the "features" that this dll offers (yea, fuckings to opengl-programmers), but as this is pouet here, i feel it shouldnt be allowed as it is not part of the official END-USER runtime stuff (clean windows, latest gfx-drivers + latest directx, and soundcard-drivers :) ).
in times of super-fast cpu's, coders might tend to not optimize their algorithms anymore, especially those that are done at startup (as las said for example, mesh-smoothing)... and using a dll for that then instead definitly sucks.
actually i shouldnt have an opinion about d3dx since i dont know anything about the "features" that this dll offers (yea, fuckings to opengl-programmers), but as this is pouet here, i feel it shouldnt be allowed as it is not part of the official END-USER runtime stuff (clean windows, latest gfx-drivers + latest directx, and soundcard-drivers :) ).
in times of super-fast cpu's, coders might tend to not optimize their algorithms anymore, especially those that are done at startup (as las said for example, mesh-smoothing)... and using a dll for that then instead definitly sucks.
aaaaand a super fast cpu helps your intro size how? :)
a non-coder question: what does d3dx give that defacto dx9 doesn't?
d3dx is mostly math but also an import system, shader compiling and the likes.
also texture loading, mesh features, font stuff... quite nifty things to use in a 4k.
argh gargaj ;) i didnt say that coders do not _use_ that cpu power, it's just that they might not care about the efficiency of their algorithms anymore, in many cases optimizing can result into smaller code... at least thats my personal experience, maybe my code is too sloppy ;)
of course people can also optimize their code just for size and not for speed, too. i just didnt like that "can't be done" (without that dll) attitude :)
of course people can also optimize their code just for size and not for speed, too. i just didnt like that "can't be done" (without that dll) attitude :)
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You can use techniques which are available since a long time but way too slow. tube runs on a i486 but you need a super fast CPU to watch it with descent framerates.aaaaand a super fast cpu helps your intro size how? :)
Tube is uncompressed while (most) 4k's arent - and mere sizeoptimizing isnt always enough when you depend on packing ratios. You have to order you data and certain code a certain way - and also most of the code 4k's perform is generation where speed isnt an issue when done during the loading.