[BP survey] Is there a way for a fair entrance fee?
category: general [glöplog]
First of all I'd like to point out that this is no official survey by the BP organizing or anything. Madenmann, who happens to be part of the BP team just wanted to get some feedback on how we could help the eastern scene etc.
Yet I'll take the chance to explain some stuff to Zone - thanks to the others that already pointed out the most important things.
> Toilets 2.00 = whoo, you have gold toilets with
> this price! and why not ask a reduced price here ?
> hire yourself the people for cleaning toilets...
As others have said, we didn't have residential toilets at the party location. And no running water. And no drainage. So we had to rent toilets, water trucks, drainages.
Dixi&Toi toi, the biggest toilet rental service in Germany, bills you 1800 + sales tax per toilet wagon per weekend. We had two of those. That would have been 7 Euro / person. The price I got from the alternative rental service was the lowest from all companys in a 600km radius around the location.
Call the toilet rental service next to your home town and get a quote on toilet wagons for 5 days. Then come back and say "whoo" again.
> Tables and chairs 3.50 + Location rental 1.00 +
> City fees 0.50 = have them for free! ask your local
> politic people like town mayor, say him his city will
> be published in magazines and tvs, invit him to
> speak in the end of the party...
The City of Bingen was already supporting us for BP2004. We got the swimming bath at a price that did hardly cover the costs of the bath staff present. A city consists of tons of different offices, and you need quite a few different permissions to do such a party. And nobody in the city, not even the major, has the power to say "do not bill Breakpoint these fees". This isn't mafia country, we have laws.
And yes, I've meanwhile sat together with any political party, the city council and the city major, and they all are willing to help us as much as they can.
Regarding the tables and chairs: The city of Bingen does not own 800 chairs nor 350 tables. I doubt that many citys own this large quantity. Even if they would - maybe you should think about how those tables look like AFTER a party. There is no alternative to renting this. Actually it's pretty hard to get such a quantity of decent (=suitable for a demo party) chairs and tables at all in germany. After tons of research by myself in 2003 we had to rent the stuff from a company in the Netherlands. Just as the other bigger german partys do, as there does not seem to be a cheaper alternative.
If you know a source that can deliver us tables and chairs at a cheaper rate, feel very welcome to name it.
> Party tents, stages, floor in sleeping hall 7.00 = i
> did not understand their usage, you have a party
> place, why pay for tents ? floor are unuseful, we
> can sleep on grass or cement, you can have old
> floors for free, ask your local shop for the trash...
Well, as you already have admitted you don't know too much about Breakpoint.
> Swimming bath 1.00 = useful ? perhaps only the
> users can pay this feature ?
We decided to make this a party feature. People tend to prefer "all inclusive" prices. This way you feel much more free - you can use the shuttle bus anytime etc.
> Heating equipment 3.50 + Heating oil 4.00 =
> whooo, expensive! it is not possible to use
> electricty intead of oil? perhaps it can be more
> cheap to add this to the computer electricity
We are speaking about one MEGAWATT of heating power here. Even the high voltage lines going to the military depot don't have that capacity. Besides, heating with electricity is more than twice as expensive as diesel heating is. I thought this was common knowledge. What do you heat your house with?
> I just gives you examples, it is not useful to buy
> everything, lots of time you can use old things
> from old expositions or trash ;)
Up until now I've never found 800 chairs, a 7000 ANSI Lumen Video Beamer or an helicopter in my trash can. Send me you trash.
> Perhaps asking other party organizers(from lots of
> various countries) directly will be useful for you...
While I understand that your intentions clearly are good, you have to see that your naive hints sound pretty much like we are clueless and are wasting money. Reality is that I've spent weeks on research to get maximum bang out of the bucks. You obviously don't have any clue on what things cost. Yes, it is easy to organize a small (say 200 people) cheap party in a free city hall. Things become totally different as soon the party gets the size that Breakpoint has.
The only way to do a Breakpoint with a tighter budget would be to switch to a "all in one" location - e.g. a hall, which would mean losing some of the features people love about Breakpoint. This topic was part of the BP2004 survey and is now under consideration.
So, next time please get your facts straight. If you think you would be able to get $stuff cheaper, I'll be happy to accept quotes and hints. But no lousy "you could use a sheet of toilet paper and a flashlight as video beamer"-kind of hints :)
Yet I'll take the chance to explain some stuff to Zone - thanks to the others that already pointed out the most important things.
> Toilets 2.00 = whoo, you have gold toilets with
> this price! and why not ask a reduced price here ?
> hire yourself the people for cleaning toilets...
As others have said, we didn't have residential toilets at the party location. And no running water. And no drainage. So we had to rent toilets, water trucks, drainages.
Dixi&Toi toi, the biggest toilet rental service in Germany, bills you 1800 + sales tax per toilet wagon per weekend. We had two of those. That would have been 7 Euro / person. The price I got from the alternative rental service was the lowest from all companys in a 600km radius around the location.
Call the toilet rental service next to your home town and get a quote on toilet wagons for 5 days. Then come back and say "whoo" again.
> Tables and chairs 3.50 + Location rental 1.00 +
> City fees 0.50 = have them for free! ask your local
> politic people like town mayor, say him his city will
> be published in magazines and tvs, invit him to
> speak in the end of the party...
The City of Bingen was already supporting us for BP2004. We got the swimming bath at a price that did hardly cover the costs of the bath staff present. A city consists of tons of different offices, and you need quite a few different permissions to do such a party. And nobody in the city, not even the major, has the power to say "do not bill Breakpoint these fees". This isn't mafia country, we have laws.
And yes, I've meanwhile sat together with any political party, the city council and the city major, and they all are willing to help us as much as they can.
Regarding the tables and chairs: The city of Bingen does not own 800 chairs nor 350 tables. I doubt that many citys own this large quantity. Even if they would - maybe you should think about how those tables look like AFTER a party. There is no alternative to renting this. Actually it's pretty hard to get such a quantity of decent (=suitable for a demo party) chairs and tables at all in germany. After tons of research by myself in 2003 we had to rent the stuff from a company in the Netherlands. Just as the other bigger german partys do, as there does not seem to be a cheaper alternative.
If you know a source that can deliver us tables and chairs at a cheaper rate, feel very welcome to name it.
> Party tents, stages, floor in sleeping hall 7.00 = i
> did not understand their usage, you have a party
> place, why pay for tents ? floor are unuseful, we
> can sleep on grass or cement, you can have old
> floors for free, ask your local shop for the trash...
Well, as you already have admitted you don't know too much about Breakpoint.
> Swimming bath 1.00 = useful ? perhaps only the
> users can pay this feature ?
We decided to make this a party feature. People tend to prefer "all inclusive" prices. This way you feel much more free - you can use the shuttle bus anytime etc.
> Heating equipment 3.50 + Heating oil 4.00 =
> whooo, expensive! it is not possible to use
> electricty intead of oil? perhaps it can be more
> cheap to add this to the computer electricity
We are speaking about one MEGAWATT of heating power here. Even the high voltage lines going to the military depot don't have that capacity. Besides, heating with electricity is more than twice as expensive as diesel heating is. I thought this was common knowledge. What do you heat your house with?
> I just gives you examples, it is not useful to buy
> everything, lots of time you can use old things
> from old expositions or trash ;)
Up until now I've never found 800 chairs, a 7000 ANSI Lumen Video Beamer or an helicopter in my trash can. Send me you trash.
> Perhaps asking other party organizers(from lots of
> various countries) directly will be useful for you...
While I understand that your intentions clearly are good, you have to see that your naive hints sound pretty much like we are clueless and are wasting money. Reality is that I've spent weeks on research to get maximum bang out of the bucks. You obviously don't have any clue on what things cost. Yes, it is easy to organize a small (say 200 people) cheap party in a free city hall. Things become totally different as soon the party gets the size that Breakpoint has.
The only way to do a Breakpoint with a tighter budget would be to switch to a "all in one" location - e.g. a hall, which would mean losing some of the features people love about Breakpoint. This topic was part of the BP2004 survey and is now under consideration.
So, next time please get your facts straight. If you think you would be able to get $stuff cheaper, I'll be happy to accept quotes and hints. But no lousy "you could use a sheet of toilet paper and a flashlight as video beamer"-kind of hints :)
<flamewar>
tmb: Why would you care anyway? According to your survey answers BP2004 was the worst party ever. And while your announcement not to attend BP2005 won't save us money, it will save the security team some energy needed to carry your fat stinking body out of the hall after dying on the floor in your own vomit right before the party even started :)
Face it: The only skill you ever had was getting drunk. And this year you even failed at that. :)
</flamewar>
tmb: Why would you care anyway? According to your survey answers BP2004 was the worst party ever. And while your announcement not to attend BP2005 won't save us money, it will save the security team some energy needed to carry your fat stinking body out of the hall after dying on the floor in your own vomit right before the party even started :)
Face it: The only skill you ever had was getting drunk. And this year you even failed at that. :)
</flamewar>
melw:
I also don't think we'd drop the entrance fee on a location change. I guess it's a better idea to use the money to improve party features (and yeah, more prizemoney also would be nice).
I also don't think we'd drop the entrance fee on a location change. I guess it's a better idea to use the money to improve party features (and yeah, more prizemoney also would be nice).
Go for the throat, Scamp! ;)
Madenmann: I did fine without a shower in those four days (granted, the water in the bathtub was *black* once I was done with it) ;)
Anyway, I think the price bitching is bloody pointless. You lose more money buying food and cold beer, not to mention travel.
Madenmann: I did fine without a shower in those four days (granted, the water in the bathtub was *black* once I was done with it) ;)
Anyway, I think the price bitching is bloody pointless. You lose more money buying food and cold beer, not to mention travel.
gargaj:
Yep, that's exactly the feeling we have inside the orga team, too.
It is next to impossible to get the freedom we had at the military depot inside a city, that's for sure. If we change the location, we'll have to preserve as much of that freedom as possible, which is a pretty tough job.
That's why we did the BP2004 survey. And now we are doing lots of research on the options we have. This will take a while.
Yep, that's exactly the feeling we have inside the orga team, too.
It is next to impossible to get the freedom we had at the military depot inside a city, that's for sure. If we change the location, we'll have to preserve as much of that freedom as possible, which is a pretty tough job.
That's why we did the BP2004 survey. And now we are doing lots of research on the options we have. This will take a while.
Quote:
I did not understand why you have to pay for tables, chairs and room. It is not possible in your country to have a place/room for free ? given by the local politics autorities ? Socialism and "the fact to share public rooms for culture events" is killed in Germany for now ?
hehe zone, if such stuff is normal for you, i mean, getting partyplaces for free and stuff, i wonder why there are so few demoparties in france?! :P
anyway, bp orgas, as long as the entrance fee keeps under 70€ i'm with ya, and perhaps even above. even a 80€ breakpoint is better than some scandinavian parties where you pay nearly the same and are not allowed to drink & smoke. yay for german demoparty freedom spirit! \o/ =)
dip: The scandinavian partys use the trick to hide the entrance fee in some weird currency nobody understands. Maybe we should set the entrance fee for BP to 5 SCHINKEN, and secretly define 1 SCHINKEN = 8 Euro ;)
(Just before people start to panic: No, there are no plans at all to increase the BP entrance fee, it will stay at friendly 40 Euros)
(And btw: Thanks to those that have expressed that BP is more "worth" than 40 Euros, appreciated.)
(Just before people start to panic: No, there are no plans at all to increase the BP entrance fee, it will stay at friendly 40 Euros)
(And btw: Thanks to those that have expressed that BP is more "worth" than 40 Euros, appreciated.)
Hehe.. what about a 60 Euro "VIP" ticket that will give the buyer a better seat in a better section, and maybe access to special events? If people are willing to pay more, let them, but give them more for their money too. :)
yeah! german hookers! :D
I guess the whole VIP stuff is a bit risky if performed on a larger scale..
But damn, only 40.. As already said a dozen of times, transport, beer and food usually costs way more. Not to start about the hotel charges ^_^
Again, it's a very nice price.
But damn, only 40.. As already said a dozen of times, transport, beer and food usually costs way more. Not to start about the hotel charges ^_^
Again, it's a very nice price.
long live capitalism! \o/
i agree with plek and the others tho... the price is quite ok and eventhough some elements are quite crappy (heating/sleeping hall etc) you also pay for being at one of the best demoparties in the year. 2/3 is foreigner... means it's the best party to socialize at with your fellow sceners that you hardly see... and that's worth the money obviously!
i agree with plek and the others tho... the price is quite ok and eventhough some elements are quite crappy (heating/sleeping hall etc) you also pay for being at one of the best demoparties in the year. 2/3 is foreigner... means it's the best party to socialize at with your fellow sceners that you hardly see... and that's worth the money obviously!
my suggestion for the next breakpoint:
why not take out the coolers out of every PC?
sorry, couldn't resist :)
why not take out the coolers out of every PC?
sorry, couldn't resist :)
Other than the heating-problem, I haven't heard a single negative word from those who attended Breakpoint. Everyone absolutely loved it.
I think the price is quite fair considering what the organizers are giving back to the demoscene community in return. Especially when you consider that they are helping pay for a great deal of the costs out of their own pocket I don't see how anyone could possibly complain.
I think the price is quite fair considering what the organizers are giving back to the demoscene community in return. Especially when you consider that they are helping pay for a great deal of the costs out of their own pocket I don't see how anyone could possibly complain.
me neither radman
so many debates and all of them ending in "Breakpoint fucking ruled"... kinda makes me proud that i was there :D
on an unrelated sidenote, did i just see Plek using a japscat smiley? :D
on an unrelated sidenote, did i just see Plek using a japscat smiley? :D
hey, how about raising the price to 200 euros? that way we would get rid of all the crybabies!
I haven't gone to BP, but I did go to M&S and kinda know how this demoparty is (apart from watching pics/reports/whatever from BP's).
First, I want to state that I don't think 40 or 50 euro is expensive for a 4 days party (or, one like BP, at least).
Next, you get sponsors which carry good bucks with them... why spending them on free helicopter flights or stuff like that? I think that should be a -very last- thing to add to the demoparty, once the rest (comfort, which is what most people complains from BP about) gets done.
Of course, ATI might have included as -mandatory- having an hellicopter with their logo for people to fly around, but I'd say it'd not be that hard to convince them to do some other (cheaper) stuff and trade the euros for some more important stuff... it's all about talking.
And last, but not least, I'd say reducing the prize money if that means better support for the party would be ok... you got hundreds/thousands visitors, but just a few winners... also, BP is obviously -demoscener-, and we, demosceners don't make hi-quality demos for the prizes (or, that I want to think :) ). Probably you'll never get to the prize level of an Assembly, or The Party, but hey, who is comparing? If you want to compare your prizes with those, you'd need to add plenty of gamers, gamer-enabled sponsors, commercial booths and all that stuff that people DO NOT want at BP.... BP is a pure demoscene party, and as such, I'd recommend just keeping up with the scene spirit, make it comfortable for all visitors (so they want to go back), and as cheap as possible for everyone (keywords here: "as possible"... I am -not- complaining).
I think the organizing team is doing an excellent job out of the reports/comments/everything I read after each BP, and it gets better every year, so I don't think you are doing it bad at all... just keep up the good work :-)
Hope to see you there next year!
PS: and, for those who can't afford 40 euro... it's still 10 months before next BP... save 5 euro/month (that's 2 beers on cheaper countries, or just 1 in more expensive ones), and there you go.
First, I want to state that I don't think 40 or 50 euro is expensive for a 4 days party (or, one like BP, at least).
Next, you get sponsors which carry good bucks with them... why spending them on free helicopter flights or stuff like that? I think that should be a -very last- thing to add to the demoparty, once the rest (comfort, which is what most people complains from BP about) gets done.
Of course, ATI might have included as -mandatory- having an hellicopter with their logo for people to fly around, but I'd say it'd not be that hard to convince them to do some other (cheaper) stuff and trade the euros for some more important stuff... it's all about talking.
And last, but not least, I'd say reducing the prize money if that means better support for the party would be ok... you got hundreds/thousands visitors, but just a few winners... also, BP is obviously -demoscener-, and we, demosceners don't make hi-quality demos for the prizes (or, that I want to think :) ). Probably you'll never get to the prize level of an Assembly, or The Party, but hey, who is comparing? If you want to compare your prizes with those, you'd need to add plenty of gamers, gamer-enabled sponsors, commercial booths and all that stuff that people DO NOT want at BP.... BP is a pure demoscene party, and as such, I'd recommend just keeping up with the scene spirit, make it comfortable for all visitors (so they want to go back), and as cheap as possible for everyone (keywords here: "as possible"... I am -not- complaining).
I think the organizing team is doing an excellent job out of the reports/comments/everything I read after each BP, and it gets better every year, so I don't think you are doing it bad at all... just keep up the good work :-)
Hope to see you there next year!
PS: and, for those who can't afford 40 euro... it's still 10 months before next BP... save 5 euro/month (that's 2 beers on cheaper countries, or just 1 in more expensive ones), and there you go.
JCL:
As you aren't the first one mentioning the helicopter flights as useless (there have been several similar comments in the survey), I'll try to explain this a bit:
First of all I guess it's clear for everbody that no company is going to shell out heaps of money to the scene just because we are nice guys. They want something back.
After Steeler, XXX and myself had convinced ATI to sponsor BP, we settled with them on an amount of cash money they'd give us. On a meeting with ATI, XXX and me in munich we than discussed on what ATI could "get back". They wanted two things:
1.) Attention from the sceners
2.) Press feedback
For 1.), we discussed quite a few things. One idea was to hold a conference, another one was to give out some hardware prizes. Also we decided that someone from ATI should be present to get into contact with sceners. We also had some other plans that later had to be dropped due to missing time on ATIs side.
For 2.) we agreed them that the relationsship between the press and the scene isn't purely based on love - e.g. a lot of sceners hate crappy press reports about scene partys done by clueless reports. We agreed that we wanted high-quality press coverage, and that we'd make sure ATI get's mentioned for their efforts. So the question was: How to make the press notice ATI, and how to enable to press to write something about ATI without making it look like payed press (most serious media won't mention sponsors of an event).
Some time after the meeting I remembered I had a contact in Bingen to someone with a helicopter license. Some phonecalls later etc... on Cebit I then told ATI I now had an idea on how to give the press a catchy way to mention ATI and surprise the sceners with a crazy feature at the same time - by doing sponsored helicopter flights. Even while they already planned the BP budget, they totally loved the idea and agreed to shell out some more money for this.
So far for the "the ATI helicopter was a waste of sponsor money"-myth. It wasn't their idea, it was mine. And we did not spend any sponsor money on it. The alternative to the helicopter flights would have been: nothing. They would not have given us more money. Also the flights weren't that expensive. The pilot was unpayed, we only paid for the helicopter rental and for putting the ATI logos on it.
So, to sum this up: Totally leaving alone that our visitors loved the helicopter flights, their main purpose was: Make ATI get noticed by the press so their investment into Breakpoint has some PR value (and therefore will get a budget for BP again next year).
And this worked out DAMN good. :)
As you aren't the first one mentioning the helicopter flights as useless (there have been several similar comments in the survey), I'll try to explain this a bit:
First of all I guess it's clear for everbody that no company is going to shell out heaps of money to the scene just because we are nice guys. They want something back.
After Steeler, XXX and myself had convinced ATI to sponsor BP, we settled with them on an amount of cash money they'd give us. On a meeting with ATI, XXX and me in munich we than discussed on what ATI could "get back". They wanted two things:
1.) Attention from the sceners
2.) Press feedback
For 1.), we discussed quite a few things. One idea was to hold a conference, another one was to give out some hardware prizes. Also we decided that someone from ATI should be present to get into contact with sceners. We also had some other plans that later had to be dropped due to missing time on ATIs side.
For 2.) we agreed them that the relationsship between the press and the scene isn't purely based on love - e.g. a lot of sceners hate crappy press reports about scene partys done by clueless reports. We agreed that we wanted high-quality press coverage, and that we'd make sure ATI get's mentioned for their efforts. So the question was: How to make the press notice ATI, and how to enable to press to write something about ATI without making it look like payed press (most serious media won't mention sponsors of an event).
Some time after the meeting I remembered I had a contact in Bingen to someone with a helicopter license. Some phonecalls later etc... on Cebit I then told ATI I now had an idea on how to give the press a catchy way to mention ATI and surprise the sceners with a crazy feature at the same time - by doing sponsored helicopter flights. Even while they already planned the BP budget, they totally loved the idea and agreed to shell out some more money for this.
So far for the "the ATI helicopter was a waste of sponsor money"-myth. It wasn't their idea, it was mine. And we did not spend any sponsor money on it. The alternative to the helicopter flights would have been: nothing. They would not have given us more money. Also the flights weren't that expensive. The pilot was unpayed, we only paid for the helicopter rental and for putting the ATI logos on it.
So, to sum this up: Totally leaving alone that our visitors loved the helicopter flights, their main purpose was: Make ATI get noticed by the press so their investment into Breakpoint has some PR value (and therefore will get a budget for BP again next year).
And this worked out DAMN good. :)
maybe we should all send our income tax declaration to breakpoint organization so they can arrange a price taking that into account.
Western europe people complaining about the entry price are just cheapstakes. 40€ is like, 4 movie tickets. It's what, 1/3 of the total price of paris-bingen-paris by car. It's less than a night in a decent hotel. It's two dinners in a "correct" restaurant in a big city in northern europe. It's about 10 packs of 20 cigarettes. (20 packs in spain, 5 packs in norway)
Western europe people complaining about the entry price are just cheapstakes. 40€ is like, 4 movie tickets. It's what, 1/3 of the total price of paris-bingen-paris by car. It's less than a night in a decent hotel. It's two dinners in a "correct" restaurant in a big city in northern europe. It's about 10 packs of 20 cigarettes. (20 packs in spain, 5 packs in norway)
scamp, that makes sense then... Hellicopter Flights vs Nothing: obvious choice :-)
Thanks for clarifying :-)
Thanks for clarifying :-)
Two dinners for 40 euros? :) Cheapskate ;)
I'd opt for the 200 euros option. The we won't have Poles around!
I'd opt for the 200 euros option. The we won't have Poles around!
Quote:
I'd opt for the 200 euros option. The we won't have Poles around!
Ey! Watch it! And lock your car!
well well of course a "decent" dinner in paris means paying 400€ for certain meanings of decent. It would depend on your standard of living, but the lowest percentile is more relevant to the discussion.
Oh, stop it... 40 euros was more or less the entrance fee for The Party in 97-98, and BP rules a lot more (in 2004). Go studying your economics...
Oh, fuck this fuzz about the prices. If one don't have fucking 40 euros for such a great party, then STAY HOME AND FUCK YOUR SISTER, MORON. I am quite fed up with "arguments" like it's too expensive for the Eastern Europeans, because I don't feel it being expensive at all, neither does Conspiracy (am I right?) and not even our Polish friends, so, please quit whining for our sake. Everybody has a whole year to save that 40 Euros, and even a homeless can do that.
