The state of the demoscene: 1991 - 2011
category: general [glöplog]
re: LLB
I have the feeling the tutorials are already out there in various forms, they just need to be brought together in a linkfarm . . . and heck, that may already have been done in some form and I missed it.
re psonice "Instead it's a time of opportunity." Hell yes. We just gotta grasp it. : D We can honour the past AND move forward, I bet.
I have the feeling the tutorials are already out there in various forms, they just need to be brought together in a linkfarm . . . and heck, that may already have been done in some form and I missed it.
re psonice "Instead it's a time of opportunity." Hell yes. We just gotta grasp it. : D We can honour the past AND move forward, I bet.
in outreach there are a few things that should be taken into account.
different groups/types of people will be interested in different "sub-scenes" of the demoscene. roughly,
- the artsy types will like "real" pc demos (agenda, numb res etc, smash can elaborate on that)
- the geeky types will like sizecoded demos (4k's, 64k's etc)
- the hacker types will like oldschool/wild demos (c64 etc, atmega etc)
that is to say, the potential outreach victim must have something to relate to in the very essence of the production.
i think it's fair to say that in full-size demos the art (in the traditional sense of the word) is in a bigger role as it's a category where you don't need to know what it's running on to appreciate it.
roughly, again, sizecoded productions are impressive for their size - something the traditional artist person isn't interested in. then again, sizecoding and compression etc is something the geeky type would easily get chuffed about, because it's essentially a straightforward coding challenge (with non-straightforward means to achieve it).
then there's the hacker/oldschool people. i know there are a lot of people interested in both old computers / old hardware and obscure / DIY hardware. those people will probably be interested in pretty much anything that's done on their platform, or some other old / obscure platform, and some of them will want to be creative as well.
the point is - it's not like we should be trying to sell everything to everyone. there is an audience for all of the sub-scenes, but it's not the same one. and if you've got a mixed audience, you should probably try to at least mention the best of the different scenes to fish for potential interest. unless you specifically want to target e.g. hot chicks, in which case you should probably skip all the geeky bits.
different groups/types of people will be interested in different "sub-scenes" of the demoscene. roughly,
- the artsy types will like "real" pc demos (agenda, numb res etc, smash can elaborate on that)
- the geeky types will like sizecoded demos (4k's, 64k's etc)
- the hacker types will like oldschool/wild demos (c64 etc, atmega etc)
that is to say, the potential outreach victim must have something to relate to in the very essence of the production.
i think it's fair to say that in full-size demos the art (in the traditional sense of the word) is in a bigger role as it's a category where you don't need to know what it's running on to appreciate it.
roughly, again, sizecoded productions are impressive for their size - something the traditional artist person isn't interested in. then again, sizecoding and compression etc is something the geeky type would easily get chuffed about, because it's essentially a straightforward coding challenge (with non-straightforward means to achieve it).
then there's the hacker/oldschool people. i know there are a lot of people interested in both old computers / old hardware and obscure / DIY hardware. those people will probably be interested in pretty much anything that's done on their platform, or some other old / obscure platform, and some of them will want to be creative as well.
the point is - it's not like we should be trying to sell everything to everyone. there is an audience for all of the sub-scenes, but it's not the same one. and if you've got a mixed audience, you should probably try to at least mention the best of the different scenes to fish for potential interest. unless you specifically want to target e.g. hot chicks, in which case you should probably skip all the geeky bits.
reed: yes, and in kb's outreach tour we had that in mind -- although the line between "geeky" and "hacker" types seems a bit blurry to me. For me, it seems more an age and experience thing -- don't show someone who's not familiar with the restrictions of a VIC20 with The Next Level (one of my favorites), for example. Here, I'm trying to find a way to work on the makery types as well, especially hoping to snag electronics people, because they won't be intimidated by the thought of coding real demos eventually, but one can get them started with Wilds right away. Whatever will grab their interest . . .
Oh, and as to your last trolly line, my response is this:
*raspberry*
Oh, and as to your last trolly line, my response is this:
*raspberry*
The reason why size-coded prods are "door-openers" outside of the scene is obvious: it's new. Everything else has been done, but "WTF? How CAN this fit in 4k?!?!" still has a certain news-value.
...now, anyways :)
Where do you put cdak? Artsy geeky hackers? :)
gloom: you're right in the sense that most of the bigger-scale buzz we've seen around the web has been about sizecoded productions. elevated and debris and all that. they're the door-openers to a certain kind of audience.
that's the whole point - the demoscene in general is lacking certain aspects (certain types of people, really) that would make demos attractive on their own, without the help of the "wow, this is the size of a word document" factor. the artists aren't interested because demos are too geeky, and as a result demos are too geeky because the artists aren't interested. attraction by sizecoding works because it's very geeky, and it's easier to (subconsciously) forgive things because of the size.
that's the whole point - the demoscene in general is lacking certain aspects (certain types of people, really) that would make demos attractive on their own, without the help of the "wow, this is the size of a word document" factor. the artists aren't interested because demos are too geeky, and as a result demos are too geeky because the artists aren't interested. attraction by sizecoding works because it's very geeky, and it's easier to (subconsciously) forgive things because of the size.
kaneel: it's quite geeky really, come on :)
technique and technical implementation is the art (largely) in the demoscene. it's no less of an art than any other, so quit worrying about it. it's not "geeky" or any less valid than other forms.
if there are not enough "technically artistic" artists in this world to make the demoscene as large and as popular as other artistic communities - whose fault is that and what is the solution?
there is no solution and their is no one to blame. it's just that the scene and it's own particular form of craftmanship is not attractive to the mainstream. its not popular like Rap music currently is and you should be glad because most things which the majority find attractive is pure SHIT.
if there are not enough "technically artistic" artists in this world to make the demoscene as large and as popular as other artistic communities - whose fault is that and what is the solution?
there is no solution and their is no one to blame. it's just that the scene and it's own particular form of craftmanship is not attractive to the mainstream. its not popular like Rap music currently is and you should be glad because most things which the majority find attractive is pure SHIT.
its never been and it will never be attractive for the mainstream. maybe a few demos each year may attract some folks because they think a demo looks cool. but apart from that i agree with button about what the majority find attractive is pure shit.
reed: okokok, it's kinda geeky, but there are tunnels and you watch them and then is this loooooong pad and and and I had an erection (unlike rudi).
And please others, don't bring the mainstream versus us. Please, me and okkie love listening to Britney "Spears - Toxic" but still, we love the scene :)
And please others, don't bring the mainstream versus us. Please, me and okkie love listening to Britney "Spears - Toxic" but still, we love the scene :)
i'm not the one setting up a vs. competition between "us" and "them". i'm quite happy to let them enjoy their shit while i enjoy my own. that way "we" don't have to bend over backward thinking of ways to make manipulate "our" demoscene creations to be more palatable to "their" tastes and, in the process of doing so, only end-up transforming the scene into an inferior carbon copy of "their" shit which "they" STILL would not appreciate fully anyway and would just point "their" finger at "us" in mockery and disdain because "we" do not live up to "their" SHIT standards.
i don't see why their is such an effort to please "outsiders". i do not see what point "outreach" has. because, in this age of easily accessible information and the net, anyone with the slightest interest in the scene will follow the bread crumbs of their instinctive desires and find "us" anyway. I'm sure 100s of thousands have already done so, found the wikipedia demo scene info page, discovered the multitude of demos on YouTube, even tripped over Pouet and lol'd and immediately clicked into the more suitable domains/communities of trendyMediaFlashProds.com and boringPrerendered3DanimationTips.com .
no one finds our shit interesting. just live with it and quit trying to trendyfy it into something it cannot be.
i don't see why their is such an effort to please "outsiders". i do not see what point "outreach" has. because, in this age of easily accessible information and the net, anyone with the slightest interest in the scene will follow the bread crumbs of their instinctive desires and find "us" anyway. I'm sure 100s of thousands have already done so, found the wikipedia demo scene info page, discovered the multitude of demos on YouTube, even tripped over Pouet and lol'd and immediately clicked into the more suitable domains/communities of trendyMediaFlashProds.com and boringPrerendered3DanimationTips.com .
no one finds our shit interesting. just live with it and quit trying to trendyfy it into something it cannot be.
word.
Demoscener's manifesto?
yep, time to create a Pouet "About The Demoscene" page. It should contain:
"We do what we like, the way that we like and if you don't like: pls, GTFO!"
"We do what we like, the way that we like and if you don't like: pls, GTFO!"
totally agree with you button
aamof: Demoscener's manifesto
That demoscener manifesto is totally perfect.
We doesn't have to prostitute us and make different style only for getting "newcomers".
If people want to join the demoscene it's because they are interested in what we are doing since ages.
And if the demoscene die, we will surely find some new hobbies.
But any charts will make thing that the scene is dying, the way we "produce" things has changed, less prods, more quality, but I don't think the scene is dying.
Yes, there's a lot less lamers, less gamers, less kiddies watching pr0n at demoparties, and I am le very happy of that.
We doesn't have to prostitute us and make different style only for getting "newcomers".
If people want to join the demoscene it's because they are interested in what we are doing since ages.
And if the demoscene die, we will surely find some new hobbies.
But any charts will make thing that the scene is dying, the way we "produce" things has changed, less prods, more quality, but I don't think the scene is dying.
Yes, there's a lot less lamers, less gamers, less kiddies watching pr0n at demoparties, and I am le very happy of that.
perfect.
gloom: i give permission for you to twitter blog it.
gloom: i give permission for you to twitter blog it.
ill do it to, for the small community i have around me :P
i like britney spears too. should i leave the demoscene?
Iq, only after releasing elevated 2. ;)
Manifestos are so 90s
