Not welcoming
category: offtopic [glöplog]
Quote:
where do we draw the line?
Well, no- what did you mean by the phrase?
Here's are three questions for you, unrelated to the probably OT art historical stuff I could laydown.
1) Who does it hurt to have tits on the front page?
2) Who does it hurt to take tits off the front page?
3) What is the goal of Pouet?
I am uninterested in the answers of trolls. Thanks!
1) Who does it hurt to have tits on the front page?
2) Who does it hurt to take tits off the front page?
3) What is the goal of Pouet?
I am uninterested in the answers of trolls. Thanks!
Revised - where I wrote goal above, read purpose. *facepalm*
I am tired.
I am tired.
I meant here in pouet. Let me try to explain - if this were a truly equal place then surely equality should be universal, meaning that plaf's boobs have just as much right to be here as any other form of imagery. Equality is for all regardless of privilege, minority status or race/creed/colour.
It's not a truly equal place, we have a mod (who I think does a sterling job btw.) and there is some expectation of decency (as in not graphically violent, gory or sexual images) which for the most part is upheld. There are some who go against the grain - that what mods and b& are for.
I've said it before I think we should implement the [nsfw] bbcode tag. I know when I post nsfw images I always post the link rather than image with a "nsfw" label.
But. And here's the kicker - there's always going to be someone who finds something offensive, somehow. As we aren't part of a "democracy" here and garg is mostly where the buck stops as it were, what as a community do we decide is decent and what is not? We can't just be guided by either garg's morals and ethics or the fact that whenever someone complains about something. Can we?
@juvenileShithead - shhh, adults are talking.
It's not a truly equal place, we have a mod (who I think does a sterling job btw.) and there is some expectation of decency (as in not graphically violent, gory or sexual images) which for the most part is upheld. There are some who go against the grain - that what mods and b& are for.
I've said it before I think we should implement the [nsfw] bbcode tag. I know when I post nsfw images I always post the link rather than image with a "nsfw" label.
But. And here's the kicker - there's always going to be someone who finds something offensive, somehow. As we aren't part of a "democracy" here and garg is mostly where the buck stops as it were, what as a community do we decide is decent and what is not? We can't just be guided by either garg's morals and ethics or the fact that whenever someone complains about something. Can we?
@juvenileShithead - shhh, adults are talking.
Is it about NSFW, is it about offensive, or is it about harm?
What constitutes harm?
What makes sexist imagery different from racist imagery?
What make sexist imagery different than child pr0n?
What makes sexist imagery different from ethnic slur or nationalist imagery?
What is sexism?
What effect does sexism have on the development of the scene?
What makes a piece of art sexist or not sexist?
What constitutes harm?
What makes sexist imagery different from racist imagery?
What make sexist imagery different than child pr0n?
What makes sexist imagery different from ethnic slur or nationalist imagery?
What is sexism?
What effect does sexism have on the development of the scene?
What makes a piece of art sexist or not sexist?
What makes the female body different from the male body in terms of how it is represented in the graphic arts?
What is the relationship between portrayals of the female body and the gender composition of the demoscene?
What harm is sexism?
How does it make people feel when their group is reduced to stereotype or components of its physicality?
What do ads like this say about views of women?
And how would this ad be different if all the women were Asian? If all the women were substituted for by men? By Asian men? By robots? If the genders were flipped?
Why yes, I no longer give a fuck. I am lobbing Molotov cocktails now. And I have no interest in arguing. I'll just ask lots of questions and leave it to other people to answer. I have other work to do.
HAVE FUN!
What is the relationship between portrayals of the female body and the gender composition of the demoscene?
What harm is sexism?
How does it make people feel when their group is reduced to stereotype or components of its physicality?
What do ads like this say about views of women?
And how would this ad be different if all the women were Asian? If all the women were substituted for by men? By Asian men? By robots? If the genders were flipped?
Why yes, I no longer give a fuck. I am lobbing Molotov cocktails now. And I have no interest in arguing. I'll just ask lots of questions and leave it to other people to answer. I have other work to do.
HAVE FUN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz-U1zYTBmM
Very good questions, metoikos.
Here are some more concerning terminology.
What is male gaze?
What is misogyny?
What is feminism?
What are some silencing tactics used against feminism?
what is androcentrism?
what is patriarchy?
what is victam blaming?
what is sexism?
what is agency?
what is privilege?
Here are some more concerning terminology.
What is male gaze?
What is misogyny?
What is feminism?
What are some silencing tactics used against feminism?
what is androcentrism?
what is patriarchy?
what is victam blaming?
what is sexism?
what is agency?
what is privilege?
oh, some overlap
I avoided this thread, thinking that no good could possibly come of it, and I came back to see that gargaj relentlessly hauled things back to the salient point: the front page should welcome people into this anarchist computer art collective, not drive them away. Maybe more people would come and stay around and make more art that way. Thank you.
I'm incredibly impressed with sigflup's ability to come back and engage with people, eespecially the really hostile ones.
phoenix, smash, maali, I'm disappointed in you. You won't ever care, but you should.
gargaj: the 'best parts' that I meant, which are hard to see from first glance, are the competitions, the friendships and rivalries, the culture of showing off and getting rewarded by the praise of your peers for working towards mastering your craft. The seminars that teach other people how to do things, sharing tools and methods, and a way to socialise. Theme compos, fast compos, daily (!!) compos, most of them with prizes and an award ceremony. Award ceremonies ffs! SketchClub has all of that inside it's app and site. I saw scared, budding artists' lives changed by winning a peer-voted compo. They suddenly believed in themselves and put serious effort into developing their art and improved dramatically. That's amazing. That's the best parts. That's what he took. Yes, and the thumb icons.
I get some of that programming and performing live visuals at concerts: the community's harder to reach, but it's there. I've never been told to my face that my work is shit because of where I'm from, or what tools I used, or who I am. I never get told that it's mediocre or boring. Sure, some organisers only pay for their friends to come perform at the show, and some don't care about my art one bit, but the actively exclusionary hostility just isn't there. Unlike on WP, rival VJs don't work to get my youtube videos deleted out of spite, or get my contribution to the culture edited out of the official record.
The Burning Man crowd and organizers actively worked to prevent me from performing. Before and during my set. The hostility I got afterwards was incredible.
I'm sad that computer programmed art as a movement isn't bigger - and disappointed in little things, petty things, that keep it from growing.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that I left butthurt and want to see things fail. I left after one of my old idols called the most daring and ambitious artwork of my life the most underrated demo of the year.
I'm incredibly impressed with sigflup's ability to come back and engage with people, eespecially the really hostile ones.
phoenix, smash, maali, I'm disappointed in you. You won't ever care, but you should.
gargaj: the 'best parts' that I meant, which are hard to see from first glance, are the competitions, the friendships and rivalries, the culture of showing off and getting rewarded by the praise of your peers for working towards mastering your craft. The seminars that teach other people how to do things, sharing tools and methods, and a way to socialise. Theme compos, fast compos, daily (!!) compos, most of them with prizes and an award ceremony. Award ceremonies ffs! SketchClub has all of that inside it's app and site. I saw scared, budding artists' lives changed by winning a peer-voted compo. They suddenly believed in themselves and put serious effort into developing their art and improved dramatically. That's amazing. That's the best parts. That's what he took. Yes, and the thumb icons.
I get some of that programming and performing live visuals at concerts: the community's harder to reach, but it's there. I've never been told to my face that my work is shit because of where I'm from, or what tools I used, or who I am. I never get told that it's mediocre or boring. Sure, some organisers only pay for their friends to come perform at the show, and some don't care about my art one bit, but the actively exclusionary hostility just isn't there. Unlike on WP, rival VJs don't work to get my youtube videos deleted out of spite, or get my contribution to the culture edited out of the official record.
The Burning Man crowd and organizers actively worked to prevent me from performing. Before and during my set. The hostility I got afterwards was incredible.
I'm sad that computer programmed art as a movement isn't bigger - and disappointed in little things, petty things, that keep it from growing.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that I left butthurt and want to see things fail. I left after one of my old idols called the most daring and ambitious artwork of my life the most underrated demo of the year.
Gb: you pretty much blew up this thread the second you started having a go at the "euros". If anyone should be disappointed in someone its towards you for the derailment.
sorry for the massive chip on your shoulder though, it looks heavy. Can you walk with it?
sorry for the massive chip on your shoulder though, it looks heavy. Can you walk with it?
It's like nerd jokes. We got the connection nerd->virgin. And it's expected to make this stereotypical connection in jokes. Even if it's rarely true.
So now we have a guy with six girls because of the same stereotype. It'a all about sex. And girls. Men think about sex. But it doesn't make me think women are only about sex. It just makes me think it's a male joke.
In the past I wondered why all the nerd jokes are supposed to be about being asocial, a virgin and stuff? Most of the people in the scene aren't. Today I am just meh and move on.
So now we have a guy with six girls because of the same stereotype. It'a all about sex. And girls. Men think about sex. But it doesn't make me think women are only about sex. It just makes me think it's a male joke.
In the past I wondered why all the nerd jokes are supposed to be about being asocial, a virgin and stuff? Most of the people in the scene aren't. Today I am just meh and move on.
Metoikos,
1) Who does it hurt to have tits on the front page?
Most of all Pouet
2) Who does it hurt to take tits off the front page?
Noone
3) What is the goal of Pouet?
To collect all demoscene prods ever regardless of content/quality/origin
As for your further questions, I guess we agree that it would be desirable if we could get rid of elements that are causing people not to join the scene. But censoring imagery is a very superficial way of achieving that goal, and it would be questionable how much can be achieved by following that path compared to the amount of effort it would take. Furthermore, it could be regarded as the demoscene trying to hide and/or being ashamed of it's history.
Trying to look at the demoscene objectively, I don't think we ever had a major tolerance problem. Ofcourse there have been various individuals over the years who promoted questionable ideologies, but look behind that and you'll find a community where (for example) immigrants and gays have been around ever since the early days. Nobody really talks about that because, if you think about it, it's not really relevant if the assumption is that anyone can participate to begin with.
The same goes for women in terms of participating, the difference is the shitload of content that's more or less (crypto-)offensive. If people keep taking offense to material that's already out there to the point of ignoring the scene altogether change will be slower than if people take offensive materials as a cue to inform/make aware/explain/etc. Yes I know this is the slow path and it takes a lot of skill, patience and persistence, but we also managed to get Amiga sceners to go to Atari parties, so this one should be relatively easy :)
1) Who does it hurt to have tits on the front page?
Most of all Pouet
2) Who does it hurt to take tits off the front page?
Noone
3) What is the goal of Pouet?
To collect all demoscene prods ever regardless of content/quality/origin
As for your further questions, I guess we agree that it would be desirable if we could get rid of elements that are causing people not to join the scene. But censoring imagery is a very superficial way of achieving that goal, and it would be questionable how much can be achieved by following that path compared to the amount of effort it would take. Furthermore, it could be regarded as the demoscene trying to hide and/or being ashamed of it's history.
Trying to look at the demoscene objectively, I don't think we ever had a major tolerance problem. Ofcourse there have been various individuals over the years who promoted questionable ideologies, but look behind that and you'll find a community where (for example) immigrants and gays have been around ever since the early days. Nobody really talks about that because, if you think about it, it's not really relevant if the assumption is that anyone can participate to begin with.
The same goes for women in terms of participating, the difference is the shitload of content that's more or less (crypto-)offensive. If people keep taking offense to material that's already out there to the point of ignoring the scene altogether change will be slower than if people take offensive materials as a cue to inform/make aware/explain/etc. Yes I know this is the slow path and it takes a lot of skill, patience and persistence, but we also managed to get Amiga sceners to go to Atari parties, so this one should be relatively easy :)
ITT: black and white views on gender issues, nazi callouts, gross oversimplifications on the woefully misunderstood male gaze, and people ignoring harmful male stereotypes and forced gender roles.
How exactly is a disembodied pair of tits worse than SPACEPENIS?
How exactly is a disembodied pair of tits worse than SPACEPENIS?
>havoc: I even installed an Atari ST emulator and played some Turrican, while we were at Outline :)
(I swapped to my Amiga emulator, of course, because it's just so much more y'know.. better ;))
(I swapped to my Amiga emulator, of course, because it's just so much more y'know.. better ;))
Just wanted to mention that no, i don't thnk the logo belongs on the front page because its not very good (sorry plaf :)) and doesn't represent the site's content.
metiokos: i have a problem with some of your views because i think you're making the biggest generalisatiobs of anyone: that your views hold for all women, or even a majority of women. That all women would find that logo objectifying and offensive. That's simply not the case - i asked around. :) I have no doubt some women find it offensive just as some guys find penis pics offensive, but that raises the question ive been trying to dig at here unsuccessfully apparently : should we agree to the lowest common denominator of what is acceptable or do we push the bar up to e.g. What wider society is fine with? Which, in Europe at least, is largely way higher than that logo imo.
the scene is, I'm sure some people will be disappointed to find out, not a utopia. Its a cross section of normal society - altho generally more tolerant and accepting.
metiokos: i have a problem with some of your views because i think you're making the biggest generalisatiobs of anyone: that your views hold for all women, or even a majority of women. That all women would find that logo objectifying and offensive. That's simply not the case - i asked around. :) I have no doubt some women find it offensive just as some guys find penis pics offensive, but that raises the question ive been trying to dig at here unsuccessfully apparently : should we agree to the lowest common denominator of what is acceptable or do we push the bar up to e.g. What wider society is fine with? Which, in Europe at least, is largely way higher than that logo imo.
the scene is, I'm sure some people will be disappointed to find out, not a utopia. Its a cross section of normal society - altho generally more tolerant and accepting.
I wonder what the feminists in this thread would say about this prod?
Additionally: when you inject this discussion with a dose of "artistic expression" it gets a lot more complex - we're not talking about porn on the bbs, we are talking about what is ok for artists to include in art, and that makes my hairs prickle. Are you really advocatng censorship?
Jenni: the scene considered it offensive, that's why it was dq'd
>smash: I agree that it's not really very good and that it doesn't represent the site. I've tried saying as much, myself :)
In *art*, artists can include anything they want, but people who want to steer the discussion in that direction are straying quite a long way from the original topic, which was "can we avoid having this logo, since it's not good for the site".
The logo was not "art" - I didn't intend to make a piece of art or to provoke any kind of deeper thoughts. It was simply a quick and cheap joke, which I thought was pretty harmless (stupid and absurd, yes, but harmless). That was a mistake which I've apologized for - I hope people wil accept that apology, because I do mean it.
In *art*, artists can include anything they want, but people who want to steer the discussion in that direction are straying quite a long way from the original topic, which was "can we avoid having this logo, since it's not good for the site".
The logo was not "art" - I didn't intend to make a piece of art or to provoke any kind of deeper thoughts. It was simply a quick and cheap joke, which I thought was pretty harmless (stupid and absurd, yes, but harmless). That was a mistake which I've apologized for - I hope people wil accept that apology, because I do mean it.
Last person to ever post in this thread loses!
Thank you smash for representing the general view in a succinct and precise way, I appreciate that the "actually tits are generally okay in demos"-view can be expressed without resorting to name-calling and stupid macho bravado. This topic really brings out the best and worst in people :)
jenni> I really don't care. My problem was with the logo and that's over
Pouet is the 4chan of the scene.
May Demozoo suceed, because although Gargaj may be a voice of reason, there aren't many others.
Here's to 20 years from now, when all you idiots are dead of cirrhosis.
Now pardon me, I'm off to work on two demos and run what is now the oldest living party.
Bye!
May Demozoo suceed, because although Gargaj may be a voice of reason, there aren't many others.
Here's to 20 years from now, when all you idiots are dead of cirrhosis.
Now pardon me, I'm off to work on two demos and run what is now the oldest living party.
Bye!
Gah that should read oldest living party in my region. Fuck phone keyboards/screens.