Transferring prods to/from old systems (ZX, Atari, MSX etc.)
category: general [glöplog]
As always I am looking to add more old computers to my collections, however I want to be able to transfer demos and crossdevelop, so there must be some kind of PC->system transfer possibility.
Which systems have ready-to-purchase options available (I'm no good at soldering unfortunately)?
I have a C64 with a MMC64, which means that all Commodore 8-bitters with IEC are covered nice and easily (VIC20, 264-series etc.)
For my Amiga 500 I have to go with null-modem and a terminal program which is quite a hassle. :/
What about other systems like the ZX Spectrum, the Atari 8-bitters and MSX etc.?
Which systems have ready-to-purchase options available (I'm no good at soldering unfortunately)?
I have a C64 with a MMC64, which means that all Commodore 8-bitters with IEC are covered nice and easily (VIC20, 264-series etc.)
For my Amiga 500 I have to go with null-modem and a terminal program which is quite a hassle. :/
What about other systems like the ZX Spectrum, the Atari 8-bitters and MSX etc.?
For the Spectrum, the widget of choice is the DivIDE or DivIDE Plus. Plain DivIDEs tend to be built on a hobbyist as-and-when-they-feel-like-it basis, whereas the DivIDE Plus is built by a small company (and is a bit more expensive) - but they're having supply problems at the moment unfortunately :-(
Alternatively, there's the budget solution of converting your tape files to .wav and connecting up your favourite wav-playing device to the speccy. Slow, but it works...
Alternatively, there's the budget solution of converting your tape files to .wav and connecting up your favourite wav-playing device to the speccy. Slow, but it works...
For MSX1 you may use the pc soundcard and make an audio cable for the tape recorder (either with some din specific to the machine or by soldering the 2 audio wires directly inside the computer) and use a program called caslink2, i guess it's more or less the same for all tapes based computers like spectrum, cpc464, etc,
MSX2 and later are easier as they use either 3"5 360 or 720k MSXDOS formatted disks which are compatible with MSDOS, they can be managed with a tool called diskmgr (nowadays 1,44mb floppies aren't too stable on older disk drives).
For the a500 there could be a way to use a standard parallel cable, i haven't finished the program yet (my idea is to make the pc to serve .hdf files which could be accessed via a device driver to the Amiga).
The Atari ST seems to be a walk in the park too due to the format of it's 720k floppy disks.
MSX2 and later are easier as they use either 3"5 360 or 720k MSXDOS formatted disks which are compatible with MSDOS, they can be managed with a tool called diskmgr (nowadays 1,44mb floppies aren't too stable on older disk drives).
For the a500 there could be a way to use a standard parallel cable, i haven't finished the program yet (my idea is to make the pc to serve .hdf files which could be accessed via a device driver to the Amiga).
The Atari ST seems to be a walk in the park too due to the format of it's 720k floppy disks.
For the Atari 8-bits there are a couple of cf-ide solutions, can't remember their names atm but with a bit of googling you should be able to find them.
For Atari ST there is the floppy solution, like hitchhikr said, also ghostlink, which maps a ST drive to a PC parition via null modem (quite handy). Also there's the Ethernec/NetUSBee, which add ethernet capability. There is also a few solutions that plug to the ACSI (Atari's SCSI mock-up) like zip and jaz drives. Also a CF-IDE-ACSI adapter (Satandisk) was built which was of dubious quality. Finally (well, at least from what I can think right now) there are a couple of parallel port solutions requiring a custom cable.
Personally I use ghostlink qute a lot these days for falcon/tt/megaste connectivity
For Atari ST there is the floppy solution, like hitchhikr said, also ghostlink, which maps a ST drive to a PC parition via null modem (quite handy). Also there's the Ethernec/NetUSBee, which add ethernet capability. There is also a few solutions that plug to the ACSI (Atari's SCSI mock-up) like zip and jaz drives. Also a CF-IDE-ACSI adapter (Satandisk) was built which was of dubious quality. Finally (well, at least from what I can think right now) there are a couple of parallel port solutions requiring a custom cable.
Personally I use ghostlink qute a lot these days for falcon/tt/megaste connectivity
MSX1 compys too can use 3.5" diskettes, but the drives are a bit hard to come across and they are typically only 360k single-sided. For MSX2 there are also CF, SCSI and IDE adapters.
Ah yeah, for MSX there's also compact flash interfaces which are plugged into one of the cartridges ports & look like that: http://www.msxcafe.com/images/dossiers/msxcafe/CF/CF.jpg i don't know if they work on MSX1 and i don't know how easy they are to obtain.
Sunrise has them for sale. I don't have any experience with the company so it's hard to tell how soon you could get one. Apparently with MSX1 there's some memory-related problem: a memory expansion or something might be needed.
For the Oric, you can either use the tape input or the floppy drive.
Floppy drive requires to have a decent drive on the pc (like the ones on old XT/AT machines), more recent ones just miserably fail writing non standard formats. If the drive works, then you can use ReadDsk and WriteDsk to transfer image disks to real floppies.
Tape input is just using the internal sound card to replay samples or record audio signal. All you need is a good/well shielded cable, then use CLOAD or CSAVE on the Oric to do the transfer.
Floppy drive requires to have a decent drive on the pc (like the ones on old XT/AT machines), more recent ones just miserably fail writing non standard formats. If the drive works, then you can use ReadDsk and WriteDsk to transfer image disks to real floppies.
Tape input is just using the internal sound card to replay samples or record audio signal. All you need is a good/well shielded cable, then use CLOAD or CSAVE on the Oric to do the transfer.
on atari8, look out for something called a "sio2pc" interface. basically it's a cable that'll let you use your pc as a giant atari8 harddisk/floppy collection. ofcourse you need some software on the pc side, this is freely available through the web. if you really really cannot find a premade cable anywhere (mostly ebay etc), drop me a line and we can probably work something out.
concerning msx/sunrise, the experiences i had with them are all good. but if you make sure that the MSX you buy comes with a floppy drive, you don't necessarily need the interface at all.
i'm surprised that noone has mentioned the catweasel interface by individual computers/mr. schoenfeld yet... for those who don't know, the card has floppy controllers that will deal with basically any random floppy disk format. it's not cheap (100eur) though... but the card can do so much, it might an interesting option for you after all.
concerning amstrad cpc and samcoupe, floppies for these systems are in the same format, and i write my sam disks with an amstrad tool. (i don't know jackshit about cpc tho, didn't it have 3" floppies or smth?)
uhh ok that's just some info i can remember off the top of my head... if you have any other specific platforms you'd like to know about, please mention :)
concerning msx/sunrise, the experiences i had with them are all good. but if you make sure that the MSX you buy comes with a floppy drive, you don't necessarily need the interface at all.
i'm surprised that noone has mentioned the catweasel interface by individual computers/mr. schoenfeld yet... for those who don't know, the card has floppy controllers that will deal with basically any random floppy disk format. it's not cheap (100eur) though... but the card can do so much, it might an interesting option for you after all.
concerning amstrad cpc and samcoupe, floppies for these systems are in the same format, and i write my sam disks with an amstrad tool. (i don't know jackshit about cpc tho, didn't it have 3" floppies or smth?)
uhh ok that's just some info i can remember off the top of my head... if you have any other specific platforms you'd like to know about, please mention :)
The top on my A1200 is loose and I have equipped it with a CF->IDE adapter. So whenever I want to try something out on the real deal, I pop the CF into my PC and mount it in WinUAE, copy shit to it, and put it back in the A1200 .. Quite hasslesome, but works for me.
The Ultimate MSX FAQ is a great source of information regarding all sorts of things MSX-related.
Sunrise have great service and are usually present at the larger MSX meetings (check the various community websites for places, dates, times, etc) where they also provide service (repairs, upgrades). A lot of people have complained about their slow responses to orders and email communication but those people forget that the folks behind Sunrise also have a REAL LIFE do deal with.
The IDE-CF adapter should work in a MSX1 - but it needs mapped RAM and a diskrom --> msx1 + slotexpander + external memory mapper + diskdrive/interface + ide-cf -> cf cards on your msx1*
Tapes: use your favorite audio player/walkman/portable cd player/ipod/etc
Disks: dsktool (create and extract files from .dsk images using M$ CMDline DCOPY read to file / write to disk .dsk images using M# CMDline
or dd if=??? of=??? to make disks of your .dsk's and .dsk's of your disks.
I tried using the M$ GUI disk manager things but IMHO they sucked.
Other method:
1ChipMSX with SD card (FAT16, exchangable between PC and 1cM) + diskdrive + interface.
copy files in directories (stick to 8.3) to SD card. copy from SD card to disk on 1cm
copy .dsk to SD card. write to disk on 1cm using .dsk image tools.
IMHO, MSX is one of the easiest systems to transfer files to/from.**
* - I haven't checked myself if this works, it's a lot easier and cheaper to just get a MSX2 with diskdrive. Especially slotexpanders are hard to come by these days.
** - also, I might be a -little- biased on this subject ;)
Sunrise have great service and are usually present at the larger MSX meetings (check the various community websites for places, dates, times, etc) where they also provide service (repairs, upgrades). A lot of people have complained about their slow responses to orders and email communication but those people forget that the folks behind Sunrise also have a REAL LIFE do deal with.
The IDE-CF adapter should work in a MSX1 - but it needs mapped RAM and a diskrom --> msx1 + slotexpander + external memory mapper + diskdrive/interface + ide-cf -> cf cards on your msx1*
Tapes: use your favorite audio player/walkman/portable cd player/ipod/etc
Disks: dsktool (create and extract files from .dsk images using M$ CMDline DCOPY read to file / write to disk .dsk images using M# CMDline
or dd if=??? of=??? to make disks of your .dsk's and .dsk's of your disks.
I tried using the M$ GUI disk manager things but IMHO they sucked.
Other method:
1ChipMSX with SD card (FAT16, exchangable between PC and 1cM) + diskdrive + interface.
copy files in directories (stick to 8.3) to SD card. copy from SD card to disk on 1cm
copy .dsk to SD card. write to disk on 1cm using .dsk image tools.
IMHO, MSX is one of the easiest systems to transfer files to/from.**
* - I haven't checked myself if this works, it's a lot easier and cheaper to just get a MSX2 with diskdrive. Especially slotexpanders are hard to come by these days.
** - also, I might be a -little- biased on this subject ;)
Can't you use a CF adapter in the Amiga 1200 PCMCIA slot?
What about a solution for X68000? I have dozens of disk images, but the 5,25" HD format differes somewhat (Still 1,2MB) from the MS DOS format.
OmniFlop
but i don't have a x68000 to test any floppies on :/
but i don't have a x68000 to test any floppies on :/
Satandisk on the Atari ST/STe series is nice for a SD-card transfer method or even as a standalone hard disk replacement. You can transfer in bulk between the ST and PC. It's not currently made, but the creator of it is working on a next gen replacement 'Ultra-Satan' :-)
well there were some problems with satandisk, as ggn already said... it's not really recommendable to buy one from the first batch, imho.
Hence the heads-up about the next gen replacement :-)
oh yeah tototek is really cool. I've got their megadrive + pc engine flash carts. work very nicely.
(though I could argue against their windows-based software sometimes)
knos: They are programmable with uCON64, an open source multi-platform, multi-console copier tool. At least according to the website.
yeah it's true, I think I've actually used ucon64 a couple of times already with the pce card.
Thanks all, a lot of interesting options!
I did not quite understand the comments about the Atari ST - does the 720kb disks imply that you can use a standard PC diskdrive to transfer stuff?
I have been eyeing the MSX/MSX2 for a while, seems like a system that has not had its potential tapped properly yet! However it seems to be a jungle to know what to get (MSX/2/2+/Turbo+/TurboExtraSuperDuper++?) and also very hard to actually find computers for sale, most seems to be imported Japanese NTSC (at least if you want something else than stock MSX1)
I did not quite understand the comments about the Atari ST - does the 720kb disks imply that you can use a standard PC diskdrive to transfer stuff?
I have been eyeing the MSX/MSX2 for a while, seems like a system that has not had its potential tapped properly yet! However it seems to be a jungle to know what to get (MSX/2/2+/Turbo+/TurboExtraSuperDuper++?) and also very hard to actually find computers for sale, most seems to be imported Japanese NTSC (at least if you want something else than stock MSX1)
Normal PC 720k floppies work fine with ST. MSX2 computers such as Philips NMS 8250 are still easy to get from Holland for example. Just got an 8245 from there. If you're only going to get one then I'd go for MSX2, since they run most of the MSX1 prods fine and then there's some MSX2 demos too.
sdw: basically, yes... the only limiting factor is that older ST's (TOS before 1.4) don't format disks MSDOS compatible as standard. they do read MSDOS disks formatted elsewhere without problems, tho, and tools to format MSDOS on the machine itself are also plentiful (every decent copyprog does it).
btw, larger than 720k disks are possible on all ST's, these are ofcourse not MSDOS compatible... but there's various tools that'll let you read/write such disks on a pc, so it shouldn't really be a big problem.
if you want to buy european msx stuff, i guess holland is the best place to look... www.msx.org has a trading forum, there's several more sites like that... also the local dutch ebay (marktplaats.nl) is a good place for msx stuff... and i guess haohmaru will soon drop in and inform us of another bunch of great options in this direction. bottom line, it really shouldn't be too hard to get MSX1/2 hardware, 2+ and turbo-r are rare and thus a lot more expensive.
btw, larger than 720k disks are possible on all ST's, these are ofcourse not MSDOS compatible... but there's various tools that'll let you read/write such disks on a pc, so it shouldn't really be a big problem.
if you want to buy european msx stuff, i guess holland is the best place to look... www.msx.org has a trading forum, there's several more sites like that... also the local dutch ebay (marktplaats.nl) is a good place for msx stuff... and i guess haohmaru will soon drop in and inform us of another bunch of great options in this direction. bottom line, it really shouldn't be too hard to get MSX1/2 hardware, 2+ and turbo-r are rare and thus a lot more expensive.