pouët.net

So I'm lifting this over from the Evoke thread because it's an issue I care about both as an organizer and as an attendee and I think it's worth at least trying to talk about it.

We who go to parties fairly regularly pretty much have an understanding that people are going to take pictures and/or video of us, and that it's gonna end up visible on the Internet (or in a demo) at some point. In the Evoke thread (and behind the scenes also at Solskogen) there's been some contention about filming or live-streaming parts because of privacy rights, which I also think is a valid argument to have, but at the same time I think goes against some of the tradition we've been having over the years.

Parties have generally been operating on professional pictures and video to "sell" their event for the upcoming editions or for sponsor brochures (see Revision 2014), it's one of the most tangible ways to provide an idea on how the party looks or feels like, and I think timelapses are an even better way of doing that. I love a good timelapse; people on it are often indistinguishable, it gives a great impression on how the party was like, and the static point of view feels like it's unintrusive because it's never specifically aimed at anyone. On the other hand, yes, I do understand that some people don't like to have their pictures or video taken (me included), and as someone who's been a Slengpung contributor for a while now, yes, sometimes it does feel like a questionable practice.

I noted in the Evoke thread that I think a valid solution (from a legal perspective) is for parties to simply explicitly say that there will be pictures taken and attendance constitutes as consent (like so) - I'm unsure if this would stop anyone from attending, but it would at least provide an easy way out of a potential conflict.

I'd very much like timelapses to be a thing after parties (now that they're easier/more affordable to do), but at the same time I wouldn't want anyone to be blindsided by this particular problem either.

Thoughts?

I never realized this was a problem.

There's been one or two pictures of me taken at events that ended up online, and a simple friendly "can you please remove this" request has always worked.

I don't take photos that often at parties, but the times I've done so, I've had only one or two people that didn't want their picture taken, in specific situations.

I assume the pictures or timelapse and ninja-photographers aren't the problem per se, but the resulting photos ending up on quite public websites like youtube, flickr, twitter, whatever, with possibly even your handle tagged along with it, then it is much more public than scene only purposes such as e.g. slengpung. timelapses seem obscured enough due speed and lack of detail and what not that it should not be a problem though.

In current Google days, if you e.g. use your handle also in non-demoscene contexts and you're e.g. inbetween jobs, it's always a bit fingers crossed recruiters don't bump into old naughty stuff. Even when you're not shitdrunk out of your skull like others, you still sit between 50000 empty bottles of beers and what not while you're discussing very important matters in a total sober state!

Some web conferences are doing extremely good in this regard and attendees are given 3 options and different colors of badge/lanyard e.g.:

green = photos allowed
yellow = permission required
red = no pictures

HTH,

I can already forsee people getting pissed off because they had a red badge and ended up standing in the back of a shot by accident.

Considering what the usual reaction is towards people hoping to opt-out of things, this solution sounds like a disaster.

I personally prefer an obvious notice that yes, pictures and video are allowed and will be taken, but at the same time photographers should be mindful to people who don't want to be filmed.

Statement from Function 2015 organizing:

At Function we will simply allow anyone to take photo shots and videos at will (for non-profit purposes). It's an open event, and we cannot and also don't want to control these things. Also, we think these photos and recordings will contribute to our collective demoscene memories. For this reason, we will also have an internet stream, and our own set of recordings. (Additionally, our place is equipped with security cameras, which we have no control over.)

If you don't like being videotaped or photographed, we kindly ask you to stay away from our event, as we can't promise or guarantee you'll stay off-record.

I guess the problem comes when the author can not review all the frames of a video. Like a detailed timelapse video. Even a normal video in 4K could have something in the corner which the author miss, but have enough details to compromise somebody.

Even if it might seem overkill, I really like the approach p01 stated.

If it then happens by accident - okay - it's an accident. But it also could help friendly ninja photographers (I really understand that you want to capture the "real" moment as close as possible and thus try to hide the best you can - but that ninja behavior can be really unpleasant if you are visitor which tries to stay away from cameras / or wants to decide if and when a photo is taken).

Now that "everyone" posts "everything" on facebook/random social media it's close to impossible to figure out whether there might be footage of you, which you did not want to have been taken in the first place. Therefore the "just contact $person" afterwards approach is not an option at all IMHO.

Absolute NO GOs (Happened at a german demoparty in 2008): Three camera teams with massive lights at the same time inside the (dark) party hall, not asking for any permissions - straight in the face filming + LIGHT, a lot of it.

I've read excellent feedback about this practice but the demoscene is a ... different crowd, so who knows :\

If you don't want to single out people for opting-out, turn the table around and use a colorful badge/lanyard as opt-in. The absence of which doesn't mean a mindful opt-out.

Just a thought.

As long as pictures are removed/untagged on demand, and ideally the person identified in them are contacted before or immediately after posting, it's usually fine. In short, be cool.

Generally, I always found people to be very considerate when taking photos. Some activities doesn't go all too well with careers, family etc. and so, I've once asked for a picture to be removed from slengpung or some other site.

My thoughts are, that a simple statement from organizers that pictures and video will be produced at the party would suffice. Combine it with a note, that if photos or video you'd rather not have exposed to the public is found, you're welcome to contact the photographer and ask for a particular image to be removed. People taking photos and/or video should of course be considerate and follow through on such requests.

public event is public. dont do stuff in public you wouldn't want other people to see.

that being said, a no recording area would be nice (sleeping room, lounge area)

What happens in the sleeping room, stays in the sleeping room.

Is this really something that requires more systems, rules, behaviour modeling, mechanics. If you're pissed off by idiot camera crews, why not tell them or something.

What yzi said. I'm slowly tired of saying "how about behaving like grownups" but really, people, how about you do. As visitor, be prepared for having your photo taken or tell people not to take pictures of you, and as photographer, how about not shooting questionable stuff (is that a joint? Whose lap is he sitting on? How funny is that guy lying in a puddle of his own vomit really now?) or at least not uploading everything. And in case of disputes, how about talking to each other. And btw people, check that "tags need my approval" check box on FB, there's a reason it exists.

There's also a reason rules and processes exists, and that reason is so people need to think less. At least as long until the rule/process suddenly doesn't fit and inevitable drama ensues. Yay.

Also, scene parties != tech conferences [for very large amounts of !=].

or, turn yourself into a vampire and you wont show up on photos! then you also wont have to go outside when the wasps are around! win-win situation!

or just be an annoying asshole noone wants to make photos off - works for me!

lets make an anonymous demoparty!
strictily no video or photo devices or other coverage (stream) allowed. also no public visitors list or any other hint whats going down. also no handles in the compos and prods with credits in them will not be shown.
visitor discretion is advised.

with a wild compo inside the dark room?

kb: Those are obvious edgecases; the conflict in this particular case happened to be a timelapse video. Where do you place that?

Good question actually. Personally I've got nothing against such videos per se; as other people noted the party is streamed to the internet anyway, and mostly I don't need to change my behaviour to look like a decent person from afar ;) (plus 20yrs of my idiocy on Slengpung anyway). The advent of 4K and higher video could change the situation tho as one can suddenly see details of what's happening and make out people and what they're doing.

Also let's not forget that this is part of a way bigger transition when instead of Big Brother we have millions of little ones with way better equipment than Orwell could have imagined.No idea where society will go in that regard; all I know is that at least the scene is small enough to solve this on a case by case basis. At least until all photo sites and youtube start autodetecting all of the faces.

Well, regarding the streaming, when I'm at home, watching streams, I usually only watch the compos.

If find streaming outside action and in hall video totally unnecessary, maybe two exceptions: Prize giving & opening ceremony. At least - one should be able to figure out that he/she is sitting in an area of surveillance - this is currently close to impossible.
What's more important? Sofa-sceners or the visitors actually attending the party? I'm also questioning the "the party is streaming in hall/outside video to the internet 24/7 anyways" - this is totally unnecessary IMHO.

The problem with the "talk to each other" part is, different people see things differently, some are more sensitive to certain actions than others. I'm sick of having people to explain why I don't want a picture to be taken - I don't want to to justify myself all the time.

It's a public(ish) event. If I go to a music festival or rave or monster truck show I would have no expectation not to end up in a few photos, and no cause to demand everyone who took one make sure I'm not in it. If you don't want to be recognized you can always cosplay or wear a burqa. :P Hell if I go to a barbecue at a friend's place I can pretty much expect to show up on their facebook page sooner or later.

That said, I'm 33 years old and I don't generally end up drunk enough to pass out in a puddle of my own puke or hike my pants down and swing my junk around for everyone to see. If this is a problem for you maybe you should think that over a bit.

There is plenty of 'regrettable' history of me on the internet already (including a bunch of political crap I wrote in my teens under my full, legal name.) A few photos of me having fun at a party as a responsible adult isn't going to hurt anything.

@jmph, Mostly the same, excepting the political stuff. I don't really drink much, I don't behave strangely at parties, and if I get photographed ok... I was at a public event.

However some people may feel that others viewing the photos would assume "guilt by association", even if it's not true. That is it doesn't matter if you're not the one running around drunk doing weird things, but whether or not someone happened to capture a photo of that person with you standing near them. While "guilt by association" is a fallacy, I can understand if people feel that way.

So if some people don't want to be photographed or want to be asked first, then that's their prerogative.