Outline 2015 - May 14th - 17th - Willemsoord, The Netherlands
category: parties [glöplog]
Ok, that's hint enough, thanks Saga Musix!
Mr 505 returns, awesome! :)
The compo rules will actually change slightly this year. Changes are based on the number of submissions we received in recent years for various compos as well as a number of other considerations. It will, as always, be possible to submit any type of demoscene production that we can somehow show on the bigscreen. The updated rules will be published on our site soon, if you have specific questions please post here or PM us :)
The compo rules will actually change slightly this year. Changes are based on the number of submissions we received in recent years for various compos as well as a number of other considerations. It will, as always, be possible to submit any type of demoscene production that we can somehow show on the bigscreen. The updated rules will be published on our site soon, if you have specific questions please post here or PM us :)
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It will, as always, be possible to submit any type of demoscene production that we can somehow show on the bigscreen.
Best news :D
Will there be a possibility e.g. for XP or will DOS prods run in DosBox? I don't know how it was handled in the past :)
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Will there be a possibility e.g. for XP or will DOS prods run in DosBox? I don't know how it was handled in the past :)
We usually run DOS prods on DOSBox, if that works well enough. Although competitors present at the party have in the past lent us their hardware, this is not something anyone should count on, so we recommend submitting a video along with your entry if DOSBox is not an option you.
Alpha C: DosBox is an option so no problem with that. Thanks for the answer :)
New rule: No puking horses.
Subtext: We'll let it slide if they puke rainbows and win awards.
Haye, I'm working on a Amiga OCS release for the Outline.
I guess I'd better bring my own hardware ? :D
I guess I'd better bring my own hardware ? :D
fra: First of all, Amiga OCS prods are absolutely welcome in our compos and we always like and support visitors who bring real hardware. Having said that, we are moving to a slightly smaller location this year, so we kindly request visitors with oldskool hardware to be mindful of desk space when setting up their gear. Concerning the compos, our small but efficient compo team will work with the participants get all entries shown in a fitting manner while not breaking the party schedule (too much). In the case of Amiga OCS, for example, that would imply we'll first of all try if the entry can be shown correctly using the compo team's hardware, which in this case is WinUAE running on one of the compo pc's. If that doesn't work out for some reason, having a pre-recorded video of the prod available would be extremely helpful. Last but not least, if it is practically feasible and does not carry the risk of f@#$ing up the party schedule, we're not necessarily against attempts to connect visitor systems directly to our beamer setup, but we try to limit such efforts mostly to cases where there's really no suitable alternative. Hope that helps! :)
@Havoc : that answers perfectly to my question(s).
WinUAE suits me and I perfectly agree that trying to display a pre-90's RGB video signal on a modern projector can literally mess up the projection schedule :p
I'll have the hardware for my own use. It doesn't require a dedicated CRT so it should be or regarding that headroom concern you mentionned :)
WinUAE suits me and I perfectly agree that trying to display a pre-90's RGB video signal on a modern projector can literally mess up the projection schedule :p
I'll have the hardware for my own use. It doesn't require a dedicated CRT so it should be or regarding that headroom concern you mentionned :)
-or + ok. "so it should be ok"... sorry for the typo.
Eurotunnel crossing now safely booked for CiH, Gasman and myself. I guess now that means that Gasman can be safely booked for a gig at Outline if so required this year :)
Mind you, hopefully as of Outline 2016 we may well possibly end up with DJ Felice - I bought myself an audio mixer recently, so if, as planned, I work out how to use it and resolve any pitfalls then it could be rather interesting ;)
Mind you, hopefully as of Outline 2016 we may well possibly end up with DJ Felice - I bought myself an audio mixer recently, so if, as planned, I work out how to use it and resolve any pitfalls then it could be rather interesting ;)
Thanks for the heads up on table space, useful to clarify what might be brought over this time. (Not Falcon, as too much cable-age. Possibly STE, or share Felice's STE and stick with laptop.)
Regarding delays :
If I recall correctly, maybe the schedule was a bit too packed last year to be realistic, started only the evening instead maybe of starting earlier in the late mid-afternoon to have reasonable room for any delays that always need to be taken into account in event management, and the most often overrun schedules were those of the musical performers, and not related to the demo competitions. I also remember the second night where after accumulated delays only one last "loud" event could be held before the sound curfew and a live musical performance was preferred over the demo competition to much dismay of the competitors of that category. Maybe if possible one of the two time slots ought to have been re-scheduled the next day or the live musical performance halved.
Regarding platforms :
It is difficult to generalize but hard to justify abandonning Real Time paradigm at the heart of the demoscene and having passive videos only when people make the effort to travel from abroad to present their work and even provide the basic hardware (although a video can be an useful fail-safe fallback). For the combined 128-byte category, there is no replacement for the real thing (remember DOSBox is *not* an emulator but more a simulator), so @Sensenstahl if you need your intro to run on XP either send it to me or ask it to be run it on my computer. The only viable solution to force onto a non-16bit in the first place compo PC (as said over and over again through the years on this site) is using VMware running XPSP3 image (one of the only two historical "real dos" with v6.22 as explained by Wikipedia here).
Anyway, pretty excited to discover new location :)
If I recall correctly, maybe the schedule was a bit too packed last year to be realistic, started only the evening instead maybe of starting earlier in the late mid-afternoon to have reasonable room for any delays that always need to be taken into account in event management, and the most often overrun schedules were those of the musical performers, and not related to the demo competitions. I also remember the second night where after accumulated delays only one last "loud" event could be held before the sound curfew and a live musical performance was preferred over the demo competition to much dismay of the competitors of that category. Maybe if possible one of the two time slots ought to have been re-scheduled the next day or the live musical performance halved.
Regarding platforms :
It is difficult to generalize but hard to justify abandonning Real Time paradigm at the heart of the demoscene and having passive videos only when people make the effort to travel from abroad to present their work and even provide the basic hardware (although a video can be an useful fail-safe fallback). For the combined 128-byte category, there is no replacement for the real thing (remember DOSBox is *not* an emulator but more a simulator), so @Sensenstahl if you need your intro to run on XP either send it to me or ask it to be run it on my computer. The only viable solution to force onto a non-16bit in the first place compo PC (as said over and over again through the years on this site) is using VMware running XPSP3 image (one of the only two historical "real dos" with v6.22 as explained by Wikipedia here).
Anyway, pretty excited to discover new location :)
Baudsurfer:
Responding as a member of the compo team: the fact of the matter is that the compo staff is already low on manpower as it is, and we have a limited line-up of hardware at our disposal. Anything that reduces preparation time and complexities involving the actual screening of the entries is therefore a priority. Showing recordings is commonplace at demoparties - not just Outline - for similar reasons. However, we do run entries straight from hardware whenever we can, which is the vast majority of them.
I also want to point out that last year's scheduling issues were never a matter of preferring live performers over competitions.
In any case, it's cool you'll be making the trip once again, and I'm looking forward to your contributions :).
Responding as a member of the compo team: the fact of the matter is that the compo staff is already low on manpower as it is, and we have a limited line-up of hardware at our disposal. Anything that reduces preparation time and complexities involving the actual screening of the entries is therefore a priority. Showing recordings is commonplace at demoparties - not just Outline - for similar reasons. However, we do run entries straight from hardware whenever we can, which is the vast majority of them.
I also want to point out that last year's scheduling issues were never a matter of preferring live performers over competitions.
In any case, it's cool you'll be making the trip once again, and I'm looking forward to your contributions :).
Baudsurfer: Obviously you are entitled to your opinion and I'd say we share a lot of ideals, however, I think there's a few misunderstandings as to how our competition and event schedule is planned:
- It is actually our explicitly stated aim to run all competitions with visual elements in the evenings. This ensures the best possible representation of those works within the restraints presented by natural light conditions and the projection hardware we have at our disposal, and it also is in line with the tradition of Atari scene Easter parties dating back to at least the early 90s.
- Like Alpha-C says, there was never a moment where we made a choice to prefer any scheduled event over another. The assumption that we had a choice to run that demo compo earlier or the music performance the next day is incorrect, it was the last evening of the party and we had to leave the building shortly after noon the next day. We could have tried to switch the two around, which might have allowed us to run the first few demos with higher sound volume. But not the entire compo, there was simply not enough time left to do that before the sound curfew kicked in. So the choice was, unfair competition + cancelled music act, or let the music act play and have a compo at shitty sound level but at least equal for all participants. Obviously people are free to argue we made the wrong choice, but arguing that there was a choice we could have made that would have completely avoided that sound curfew problem somehow is not based on facts.
- I too would love to run compos on real hardware only. But I'm too much of a realist to think that is actually achievable with the wide variety of platforms our small crew faces each year. To have success you must be willing to make choices, our choice is to focus on what we are good at, that's modern pc's and Atari ST/STE/Falcon, and by virtue of that choice we are running a very high percentage of entries on real hardware compared to any other party out there that sticks at least somewhat to it's self declared schedule :)
In any case, be assured that we are keeping an open eye for improvements to the party that we can fit in without breaking the party experience for anyone involved. That includes the perception, so even if we don't agree with some of your points-of-view perhaps, we highly appreciate the opportunity to explain some of the method to our madness :)
- It is actually our explicitly stated aim to run all competitions with visual elements in the evenings. This ensures the best possible representation of those works within the restraints presented by natural light conditions and the projection hardware we have at our disposal, and it also is in line with the tradition of Atari scene Easter parties dating back to at least the early 90s.
- Like Alpha-C says, there was never a moment where we made a choice to prefer any scheduled event over another. The assumption that we had a choice to run that demo compo earlier or the music performance the next day is incorrect, it was the last evening of the party and we had to leave the building shortly after noon the next day. We could have tried to switch the two around, which might have allowed us to run the first few demos with higher sound volume. But not the entire compo, there was simply not enough time left to do that before the sound curfew kicked in. So the choice was, unfair competition + cancelled music act, or let the music act play and have a compo at shitty sound level but at least equal for all participants. Obviously people are free to argue we made the wrong choice, but arguing that there was a choice we could have made that would have completely avoided that sound curfew problem somehow is not based on facts.
- I too would love to run compos on real hardware only. But I'm too much of a realist to think that is actually achievable with the wide variety of platforms our small crew faces each year. To have success you must be willing to make choices, our choice is to focus on what we are good at, that's modern pc's and Atari ST/STE/Falcon, and by virtue of that choice we are running a very high percentage of entries on real hardware compared to any other party out there that sticks at least somewhat to it's self declared schedule :)
In any case, be assured that we are keeping an open eye for improvements to the party that we can fit in without breaking the party experience for anyone involved. That includes the perception, so even if we don't agree with some of your points-of-view perhaps, we highly appreciate the opportunity to explain some of the method to our madness :)
Havoc : thank you for respecting my opinion and admiting I am entitled to it and sharing it with you and others does not represent necessarily criticism on my behalf - rather exchanging point of views.
Outline is great fun and I, in turn reckon you are fully entitled to manage an market/sell an event you organize to others as you see fit, not questions there. I admit you, AlphaC and other organizers do a really awesome job. Solely I will rephrase some specifics in the light of you previous contibution, just to clear any residual misunderstandings.
I hear what you are saying but surely that applies principally to the projection of demos on the big screen, not necessarily musical performances based on earing and independent of "natural light conditions" thus binary interleaving the two types of events mechanically starting nightfall only (as it seemed to have been devised - but I may be wrong there too) still remains slightly questionable imho especially if you admit to facing delay problems (like all of the other demoparties, yes).
OK. I didn't know putting a live act next morning (while remaining a bit unfair for the concerned) was not feasible as we agree the early birds mostly left around noon next day and I read your explaination twice and it is clearer to me now regarding the constraints you presented there were no good choices then. And even if there were, please rest assured I'd still envy your odds of good/bad decisions ratio in general.
Alpha C :
Yes. Havoc extrapolated about last year's only known issue context above and it is clearer now. I lacked the information Showing Time(category)>Playing Time(liveact), something only an organizer knowing beforhand the number of entries submitted would know and approximate. Nevertheless and without stigmatizing music lovers (group to which I belong), is it really 100% certain in all honesty no live act overran schedule ? If that was ever the case, empasizing on delays exclusively related to compos might have felt inappropriate.
Yes. But come to think of it, you are really also the *only* demoparty of the year hosting a combined 128 byte category, thus "modern pc's and Atari ST/STE/Falcon" just won't cut it in that category alas I am afraid. In that category as the others, I certainly agree with the fact that you "are running a very high percentage of entries on real hardware compared to any other party out there". I just hope it remains that way, because (and I hope you forgive me for being frank here and do not take offense) if I take a day off work, pay 100 euros and spend 10 hours riding in a car to cross borders, notably but not solely, it is not to show a 40 second video one could post on YouTube in the first place. This is not criticizing but recalling some pointers.
I trust you will organize another 99,99% awesome event. In any cases :
I cannot cook Chillie or help with "modern PCs" shaders, but do not hesitate to ask me some dull gruntwork task, I'd be happy and honoured ;)
Outline is great fun and I, in turn reckon you are fully entitled to manage an market/sell an event you organize to others as you see fit, not questions there. I admit you, AlphaC and other organizers do a really awesome job. Solely I will rephrase some specifics in the light of you previous contibution, just to clear any residual misunderstandings.
Quote:
- It is actually our explicitly stated aim to run all competitions with visual elements in the evenings. This ensures the best possible representation of those works within the restraints presented by natural light conditions and the projection hardware we have at our disposal, and it also is in line with the tradition of Atari scene Easter parties dating back to at least the early 90s.
I hear what you are saying but surely that applies principally to the projection of demos on the big screen, not necessarily musical performances based on earing and independent of "natural light conditions" thus binary interleaving the two types of events mechanically starting nightfall only (as it seemed to have been devised - but I may be wrong there too) still remains slightly questionable imho especially if you admit to facing delay problems (like all of the other demoparties, yes).
Quote:
- Like Alpha-C says, there was never a moment where we made a choice to prefer any scheduled event over another. The assumption that we had a choice to run that demo compo earlier or the music performance the next day is incorrect, it was the last evening of the party and we had to leave the building shortly after noon the next day. We could have tried to switch the two around, which might have allowed us to run the first few demos with higher sound volume. But not the entire compo, there was simply not enough time left to do that before the sound curfew kicked in. So the choice was, unfair competition + cancelled music act, or let the music act play and have a compo at shitty sound level but at least equal for all participants. Obviously people are free to argue we made the wrong choice, but arguing that there was a choice we could have made that would have completely avoided that sound curfew problem somehow is not based on facts.
OK. I didn't know putting a live act next morning (while remaining a bit unfair for the concerned) was not feasible as we agree the early birds mostly left around noon next day and I read your explaination twice and it is clearer to me now regarding the constraints you presented there were no good choices then. And even if there were, please rest assured I'd still envy your odds of good/bad decisions ratio in general.
Alpha C :
Quote:
I also want to point out that last year's scheduling issues were never a matter of preferring live performers over competitions.
Yes. Havoc extrapolated about last year's only known issue context above and it is clearer now. I lacked the information Showing Time(category)>Playing Time(liveact), something only an organizer knowing beforhand the number of entries submitted would know and approximate. Nevertheless and without stigmatizing music lovers (group to which I belong), is it really 100% certain in all honesty no live act overran schedule ? If that was ever the case, empasizing on delays exclusively related to compos might have felt inappropriate.
Quote:
- I too would love to run compos on real hardware only. But I'm too much of a realist to think that is actually achievable with the wide variety of platforms our small crew faces each year. To have success you must be willing to make choices, our choice is to focus on what we are good at, that's modern pc's and Atari ST/STE/Falcon, and by virtue of that choice we are running a very high percentage of entries on real hardware compared to any other party out there that sticks at least somewhat to it's self declared schedule :)
Yes. But come to think of it, you are really also the *only* demoparty of the year hosting a combined 128 byte category, thus "modern pc's and Atari ST/STE/Falcon" just won't cut it in that category alas I am afraid. In that category as the others, I certainly agree with the fact that you "are running a very high percentage of entries on real hardware compared to any other party out there". I just hope it remains that way, because (and I hope you forgive me for being frank here and do not take offense) if I take a day off work, pay 100 euros and spend 10 hours riding in a car to cross borders, notably but not solely, it is not to show a 40 second video one could post on YouTube in the first place. This is not criticizing but recalling some pointers.
Quote:
In any case, be assured that we are keeping an open eye for improvements to the party that we can fit in without breaking the party experience for anyone involved. That includes the perception, so even if we don't agree with some of your points-of-view perhaps, we highly appreciate the opportunity to explain some of the method to our madness :)
I trust you will organize another 99,99% awesome event. In any cases :
Quote:
[..] our small crew [..]
I cannot cook Chillie or help with "modern PCs" shaders, but do not hesitate to ask me some dull gruntwork task, I'd be happy and honoured ;)
@Baudsurfer: The intro runs under XPSP3 (where it was coded) and under DosBox. But if you are at the party with a XP machine and allow entries being run on it it would be nice :)
what windows do you want to use - 32bit or 64bit?
@sensenstahl : yes I am bringing XPSP3 32-bit over as did last year in case WMware+XPSP3 32-bit not installed on compo machine for running PC 128-bytes. Again either send me your .com or make it explicitly clear somehow to organizing staff you would really prefer that option (depends on how cpu incentive is your code actually). Please note, of course, this is nowhere a garantee since it depends on organizing staff's decision, but as Alpha C and Havoc already stated above they do "try to run on the real machines whenever possible".
Baudsurfer: Correct, the projection issue is obviously less prudent for music competitions, and in fact we have scheduled those slightly earlier in the afternoon than they were last year to make sure we won;t run into scheduling issues in the evenings.
About live act schedule overruns: Insofar that occurred last year it stayed within the limits of scheduled overflow times. The real tricky factor is the compos, you just cannot predict how many entries you get for a certain compo and how long they will be when played in a row before the deadline is over. We've planned more time this year and keep our fingers crossed that our visitors will supply us with the right amount of entries to fill this extra time :)
About the 128byte compo and video recordings and so on, I understand you care a lot about this compo like myself. But realistically speaking, we'd need more money for equipment (and licenses if you're talking VMWare, I guess) before enlisting extra manpower would make practical sense. Until that materializes, we'll stick to doing the best we can with the tools we have at our disposal.
About live act schedule overruns: Insofar that occurred last year it stayed within the limits of scheduled overflow times. The real tricky factor is the compos, you just cannot predict how many entries you get for a certain compo and how long they will be when played in a row before the deadline is over. We've planned more time this year and keep our fingers crossed that our visitors will supply us with the right amount of entries to fill this extra time :)
About the 128byte compo and video recordings and so on, I understand you care a lot about this compo like myself. But realistically speaking, we'd need more money for equipment (and licenses if you're talking VMWare, I guess) before enlisting extra manpower would make practical sense. Until that materializes, we'll stick to doing the best we can with the tools we have at our disposal.
@havoc: what windows do you want to use - 32bit or 64bit?
@havoc, no problemo amigo. Remember my help offer for any grunt work still holds just in case you need extra hands :)
g0blinish: The compobox runs Win7 64bit
Baudsurfer: Thanks! Will definitely keep that in mind.
Baudsurfer: Thanks! Will definitely keep that in mind.
havoc, thanks.
When you publish e-mail for entry submission?
When you publish e-mail for entry submission?