pouët.net

I think it kind of is - I think it's established now that this demo does have "demoscene relevance" being that it's made by a scener and was added here sincerely. Yes it would possibly have been more suited to the wild category than demo, but now it seems that the only reason it was removed was because of the method of transmission, which is not a very progressive attitude in my opinion.

re. "giant archive", see my comment about librarians earlier in the thread.

I'm with the "if it was made _for_ the demoscene, it is demoscener" team...

btw, I'm already in the process to port some of my prods (64 and 4k mainly) to the web, I think that's the best way to spread the word of demoscene, online demos, really.

iq, cool!

gloom, yeah you forgot about the OUTREACH!!111 opportunity.

gloom: for most demos, you watch it once, if it's online and you can watch it with a single click then it's a good timesaver. It saves your disk space too, and it's super portable. If you really want to save it.. well, browsers have had a save button for quite some time now. I wish all demos could be viewed like that (ok, so you'd want a fullscreen button somewhere..)

I reckon flash (and all the other not-quite-100%-demo 'platforms') are actually great. Ok, so not that great for demos, but definitely great for new people - it's a quick and accessible way to get into the scene and demo making. If you start with that, you quickly hit the limits of it and move on to something a bit more traditional.

no, this is SPARTA!

I'm with the "if it's made with same purpose as demoes, its demoscene spirit, even if the author dunno what is a demo" team...

And about here, scene.org etc, only people that know demoscene know it,
So if a production is added here by his author (only ), it's demo scene related, wild or whatever.

there is , for me , no rule about 'to be real time' , no need to talk about kindergarden where most people was not present, the only rule is to promote himself with a freeware product.

what i see here , is that you dont want to care about things you don't know.

is that bad english?

i'm way too lazy to do actual thinking, but:

1) whatever you do, delete the 32 byte "intros"
2) [citation needed]

actually one of the reasons was that the prodpage got derailed and the discussion made sense so i broke a few eggs for the benefit of tabula rasa. that said, if the author stands up and reasons about it, i'm willing to let a second chance slip.

let's face it - whereever we draw the line, it's going to get contested and bled over by some borderline cases; the more strict we are, the less likely is the situation to slip out of control. (if we let everything go, people will want to see everything let go.)

i also disagree that it's hindering the progression of the demoscene - everyone is welcome to incorporate any damn influence of said animation to their next demo or musicdisk, but assuming it's not a demoscene prod, does it really help that we just agglomerate stuff as our own? influence spawns creativity, i give you that, but integration results in dilution.

also, online viewability is a convenience factor, not an aesthetic/artistic one. the main issue here was archivability, packaging and transfer.

ultimately i tend to think that at least a few words from the author as a comment/nfo wouldve helped the case immensely. this way it just kinda felt that the prod was just "dumped on us".

psonice: that's an interesting take on the subject. unfortunately flash/javascript lock you in, i.e. no easy way to add own native code stuff which is almost essential for (advanced) demos...

IMHO scriptengines like Lua,Python,TkScript combined with C/C++(..and ASM) today are what the combination of C/C++/Pascal + ASM was 10-15 years ago :) but then again, maybe that's just me :D

more on topic: IMHO, if it looks like a demo, it *is* a demo and the platform does not matter (but yea, it should be saveable to a self-contained archive/dir !)

and if you do flash demos, please include a .html that launches the .swf, it's more convient that way, I think

make that a) convenient and b) I also agree that it should have been made in a "demo state of mind" or put it that way: the prod should've been submitted by one of the authors or by someone who is personally in contact with/authorized by the authors

are the keywords that should help in filtering matters.
if proper demoscene release significances (.nfo, file.id_diz) are given also,
its a demoscene prod.. and the story goes on..

DISCLAIMER: i didn´t read the whole Thread yet...

but i think if there´s no Download-Link it shouldn´t be here... demos always have been programs to be executed on your very own machine...so if you don´t possess it afterwards its just NOT good ! ( pouet is a database for programs to be downloaded ;) ...and: hi havoc...i like you more and more, haha )

put things like these on the oneliner or make a Thread ( discussion/rating possible this way ) ...BASS!

Gloom, let me hit you on this one. What's with Linger in Shadows... Can you donwload the bin and archive it? No. But it's a demo, right? Would it be considered a demo if the author did a screencapture of the flash demo and added it as downlad link?

trace: i admire your persistance but you're preaching to deaf ears. being pedantic dicks is part of the demoscene spirit, is what makes this culture so awesome!!1

It encourages me this time that I'm not alone. Cheers parapete!

interesting debate but factually it's just much ado about nothing : just let that prod be part of pouet, it's NOT as if flash prods were never submitted to pouet, and pouet is better as an exhaustive database in so far as it's simply more democratic.

Oh, so now you're trying to win me over by making fun of me? Nice. :) And .. what?! What "outreach opportunity"? What on earth will it do to raise awareness of the demoscene if person X sees a Flash animation somewhere? How will that help sending the message of "the whole point of the demoscene is that the productions are realtime"? Major counter-intuitive advertising, don't you think?

Again: you're free to disagree as much as you like, but as Gargaj says: people are always going to disagree, but the line has to go somewhere. To quote myself: this is Pouet, not Vimeo.

DISC-LAMER: still NOT completely through all these way-of-thinkings....

but i wanna say that if no greetz to other demo-ppl in the prod, its not demo !
and still my download-point ( it MUST be downloadable, if @PWET !!! ) is totally valid !
ofcoz pwet is more than just a download-database...as database suggests already: theres extra-info...which is absolutely essential/important !
( pv2.0 -> info on ppl made it possible pu-leaZe ! -> coders/graphicians/musicians/others/tools )

gloom: good point. Please remove all the games, wilds, videos etc. from the database while you're at it ;)

mick jogger: it's easily savable, just look in the file menu in the browser for the save button. A lot of the wilds/videos on here also play directly in the browser when you click the download link, so that's not really even a difference. Tons of other prods are also missing .nfo files too...

Also, i understand that it did greet other sceners, and was made by at least one scener.

Yay, this is not a demo then \o/ Finally it can be removed from the database \o/

technically if you watch in your browser, you did download it, d'oh!


and gloom yet again you profess a narrow-minded opinion about what demos should be :/

demos have obviously evolved over the years, and personally i think that it's just about enjoying being creative with friends and showing it to a community you feel part of.

i don't particularly speak of this flash animation whose author seems to be a demoscene veteran, but if nowadays kids use easy modern tools like flash to be creative, then why not ? i don't mind at all watching more flash animations in demoparties and online. And some very skilled people around have proved that flash prods could show some nifty coding!

the demoscene *has* to think ahead and not always backwards.

just woke up, swallowed my prescription tablets, and decided to read the thread that is bound to lead nowhere.

if anything after reading this discussion, i was glad to have seen some words written by ps for the first time in months. i sincerely hope you are doing well, and can put this discussion in the right perspective, regardless of the direction and/or outcome, if any.

i didnt get the flash-site btw...got removed before...

but i hate "state of the art" aswell btw..for its lameness ( except the 3d-stuff ) ...so you´re welcome StingRay ;) ( just don´t forget to pick on me...i love it...its not war, but a real conversation instead ;) somehow ! )

pwet is love/pseudo-war ! and i love it this way! an archy ! ( keep on pissing on oldies...leave the newcomers as they are...they need some time to figure !!! )

register to PSN and download it to your ps3 harddisk...
more questions?

you forgot to mention you have to pay some money for it ;)